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Michael Ossipoff
This email originated from outside ECU.

Tomorrow (or today, depending on where you are), Tuesday Februarius 18th, at 1155 UTC, the Solar declination will be halfway back up from its Yul value to its Ostara value.

The astronomical ecliptic-month of Pisces will begin tomorrow at 0444 UTC.

That declination halfway back up moment occurs every year about 17 hours after the beginning of ecliptic Pisces.

9 Tu
Aquarius 30th
Februarius 18th, 2020

0729 UTC
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Michael Ossipoff
This email originated from outside ECU.

The astronomical ecliptic-month of Pisces will begin tomorrow at 0444 UTC.

I meant on the 19th at 0444 UTC.

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 2:29 AM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:
Tomorrow (or today, depending on where you are), Tuesday Februarius 18th, at 1155 UTC, the Solar declination will be halfway back up from its Yul value to its Ostara value.

The astronomical ecliptic-month of Pisces will begin tomorrow at 0444 UTC.

That declination halfway back up moment occurs every year about 17 hours after the beginning of ecliptic Pisces.

9 Tu
Aquarius 30th
Februarius 18th, 2020

0729 UTC
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Re: Sun entering Pisces♓

Litmus A Freeman
This email originated from outside ECU.

3 Pisces♓ 13520 UCC

Hey Michael

Actually 04:57UTC (on 1 Pisces♓ UCC) ;)

Yours pedantically!

Litmus

-----------------------
Litmus A Freeman
Creator of the Universal Celestial Calendar (UCC)
www.universalcelestialcalendar.com
On 2/18/20 7:32 AM, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

The astronomical ecliptic-month of Pisces will begin tomorrow at 0444 UTC.

I meant on the 19th at 0444 UTC.

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 2:29 AM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:
Tomorrow (or today, depending on where you are), Tuesday Februarius 18th, at 1155 UTC, the Solar declination will be halfway back up from its Yul value to its Ostara value.

The astronomical ecliptic-month of Pisces will begin tomorrow at 0444 UTC.

That declination halfway back up moment occurs every year about 17 hours after the beginning of ecliptic Pisces.

9 Tu
Aquarius 30th
Februarius 18th, 2020

0729 UTC
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Re: Sun entering Pisces♓

Michael Ossipoff
This email originated from outside ECU.



On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 1:21 PM Litmus UCC Zone <[hidden email]> wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

3 Pisces♓ 13520 UCC

Hey Michael

Actually 04:57UTC (on 1 Pisces♓ UCC) ;)

Yours pedantically!

Litmus


When was your source published? Popular sources for sign-ingress were calculated and published decades in advance.  The tiniest uncertainties about positions and motions of themany relevant gravitationally-interacting celestial-bodies can cause a 15-minute error in an ingress-time. 

Pisces 4th


-----------------------
Litmus A Freeman
Creator of the Universal Celestial Calendar (UCC)
www.universalcelestialcalendar.com
On 2/18/20 7:32 AM, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

The astronomical ecliptic-month of Pisces will begin tomorrow at 0444 UTC.

I meant on the 19th at 0444 UTC.

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 2:29 AM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:
Tomorrow (or today, depending on where you are), Tuesday Februarius 18th, at 1155 UTC, the Solar declination will be halfway back up from its Yul value to its Ostara value.

The astronomical ecliptic-month of Pisces will begin tomorrow at 0444 UTC.

That declination halfway back up moment occurs every year about 17 hours after the beginning of ecliptic Pisces.

9 Tu
Aquarius 30th
Februarius 18th, 2020

0729 UTC
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Re: Sun entering Pisces♓

Michael Ossipoff
This email originated from outside ECU.

Litmus--

I don't intend any criticism of the advance-calculated ephemerides.

They're useful and convenient. It's just that to-the-minute accuracy isn't possible for sign-ingresses calculated decades in advance.

As I said, the tiniest uncertainties about the initial positions and motions of the many gravitationally-interacting celestial-bodies will propagate and increase over the decades, until there are errors up to 15 minutes.

But all the sources, whenever calculated, give accurate ingress days.

9 Su
Pisces 5th
Februarius 23rd


On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 4:36 PM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 1:21 PM Litmus UCC Zone <[hidden email]> wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

3 Pisces♓ 13520 UCC

Hey Michael

Actually 04:57UTC (on 1 Pisces♓ UCC) ;)

Yours pedantically!

Litmus


When was your source published? Popular sources for sign-ingress were calculated and published decades in advance.  The tiniest uncertainties about positions and motions of themany relevant gravitationally-interacting celestial-bodies can cause a 15-minute error in an ingress-time. 

Pisces 4th


-----------------------
Litmus A Freeman
Creator of the Universal Celestial Calendar (UCC)
www.universalcelestialcalendar.com
On 2/18/20 7:32 AM, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

The astronomical ecliptic-month of Pisces will begin tomorrow at 0444 UTC.

I meant on the 19th at 0444 UTC.

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 2:29 AM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:
Tomorrow (or today, depending on where you are), Tuesday Februarius 18th, at 1155 UTC, the Solar declination will be halfway back up from its Yul value to its Ostara value.

The astronomical ecliptic-month of Pisces will begin tomorrow at 0444 UTC.

That declination halfway back up moment occurs every year about 17 hours after the beginning of ecliptic Pisces.

9 Tu
Aquarius 30th
Februarius 18th, 2020

0729 UTC
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Re: Sun entering Pisces♓

Michael Ossipoff
This email originated from outside ECU.

Litmus--

Online, you can find sources whose information was calculated in the current or previous year, giving to-the-minute accuracy.

Some tell the ingress-times.  Some instead tell the daily ecliptic-longitudes, at each day's noon or midnight in Greenwich.

For the latter, interpolate linearly to find when the Solar ecliptic-longitude has a particular value, such as 330 degrees (Pisces ingress).

...or ,of course, interpolate to find the Solar ecliptic-longitude at a particular time.

Linear interpolation is quite accurate, for Solar ecliptic-longitude, which varies very nearly linearly with time.

Linear interpolation error for those interpolations will typically be only a tiny fraction of a (time) second, and less than an (arc) second.

9 Su
Pisces 5th
Februarius 23rd



On Sun, Feb 23, 2020 at 9:59 AM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:
Litmus--

I don't intend any criticism of the advance-calculated ephemerides.

They're useful and convenient. It's just that to-the-minute accuracy isn't possible for sign-ingresses calculated decades in advance.

As I said, the tiniest uncertainties about the initial positions and motions of the many gravitationally-interacting celestial-bodies will propagate and increase over the decades, until there are errors up to 15 minutes.

But all the sources, whenever calculated, give accurate ingress days.

9 Su
Pisces 5th
Februarius 23rd


On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 4:36 PM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 1:21 PM Litmus UCC Zone <[hidden email]> wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

3 Pisces♓ 13520 UCC

Hey Michael

Actually 04:57UTC (on 1 Pisces♓ UCC) ;)

Yours pedantically!

Litmus


When was your source published? Popular sources for sign-ingress were calculated and published decades in advance.  The tiniest uncertainties about positions and motions of themany relevant gravitationally-interacting celestial-bodies can cause a 15-minute error in an ingress-time. 

Pisces 4th


-----------------------
Litmus A Freeman
Creator of the Universal Celestial Calendar (UCC)
www.universalcelestialcalendar.com
On 2/18/20 7:32 AM, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

The astronomical ecliptic-month of Pisces will begin tomorrow at 0444 UTC.

I meant on the 19th at 0444 UTC.

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 2:29 AM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:
Tomorrow (or today, depending on where you are), Tuesday Februarius 18th, at 1155 UTC, the Solar declination will be halfway back up from its Yul value to its Ostara value.

The astronomical ecliptic-month of Pisces will begin tomorrow at 0444 UTC.

That declination halfway back up moment occurs every year about 17 hours after the beginning of ecliptic Pisces.

9 Tu
Aquarius 30th
Februarius 18th, 2020

0729 UTC
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Re: Sun entering Pisces♓

Michael Ossipoff
This email originated from outside ECU.

Litmus--

Oops! When I said that linear interpolation of Solar ecliptic-longitude (when it's given for each day) is accurate to a tiny fraction of a (time) second, I was basing that statement on diurnal motion of celestial bodies due to the Earth's rotation. For that, each an arc-second is equivalent to 1/15 of a time-second.
.
But, when it's the Sun's movement on the ecliptic, an arc-second is equivalent to 24 time-seconds.
.
So if, for a particular interval of interpolation, a linear-interpolation could have an error of 1 arc-second, then a linear-interpolation could have an error of 24 time-seconds.  But that means that it would still be accurate to the nearest minute.
.
In the interpolation for the time of the Solar ecliptic-longitude of 330 degrees (Pisces ingress), the linear-interpolation is accurate within 17 seconds.
.
9 Su
Pisces 5th
Februarius 23rd



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Re: Sun entering Pisces♓

Litmus A Freeman
In reply to this post by Michael Ossipoff
This email originated from outside ECU.

6♓20 UCC

Dear Michael, Karl & Co

I use an ephemeris APP on my phone and www.planetwatcher.com on my laptop. This way I am always using up to date accurate figures, rather than out of date estimates from long ago.

Let me know if you'd like the name of the APP

The table that Karl shared from Cafe Astrology also confirms the time for the Sun entering Pisces♓ as 04:57 UTC on 1 TWELVE-Pisces♓ 13520 UCC (19 February 2020 Gregorian)

Cheers

Litmus

-----------------------
Litmus A Freeman
Creator of the Universal Celestial Calendar (UCC)
www.universalcelestialcalendar.com
On 2/22/20 9:36 PM, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.



On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 1:21 PM Litmus UCC Zone [hidden email] wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

3 Pisces♓ 13520 UCC

Hey Michael

Actually 04:57UTC (on 1 Pisces♓ UCC) ;)

Yours pedantically!

Litmus


When was your source published? Popular sources for sign-ingress were calculated and published decades in advance.  The tiniest uncertainties about positions and motions of themany relevant gravitationally-interacting celestial-bodies can cause a 15-minute error in an ingress-time. 

Pisces 4th


-----------------------
Litmus A Freeman
Creator of the Universal Celestial Calendar (UCC)
www.universalcelestialcalendar.com
On 2/18/20 7:32 AM, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

The astronomical ecliptic-month of Pisces will begin tomorrow at 0444 UTC.

I meant on the 19th at 0444 UTC.

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 2:29 AM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:
Tomorrow (or today, depending on where you are), Tuesday Februarius 18th, at 1155 UTC, the Solar declination will be halfway back up from its Yul value to its Ostara value.

The astronomical ecliptic-month of Pisces will begin tomorrow at 0444 UTC.

That declination halfway back up moment occurs every year about 17 hours after the beginning of ecliptic Pisces.

9 Tu
Aquarius 30th
Februarius 18th, 2020

0729 UTC
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Re: Sun entering Pisces♓

Litmus A Freeman
In reply to this post by Michael Ossipoff
This email originated from outside ECU.

Michael

Please see my other reply. (I've been using various ephemerides for many years now)

And have calculated and converted between scales such as time for RA and degrees for Declination many times, but thanks for sharing anyway for anyone else on the list who may not have done the same kind of research/studies

Litmus

-----------------------
Litmus A Freeman
Creator of the Universal Celestial Calendar (UCC)
www.universalcelestialcalendar.com
On 2/23/20 4:36 PM, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

Litmus--

Oops! When I said that linear interpolation of Solar ecliptic-longitude (when it's given for each day) is accurate to a tiny fraction of a (time) second, I was basing that statement on diurnal motion of celestial bodies due to the Earth's rotation. For that, each an arc-second is equivalent to 1/15 of a time-second.
.
But, when it's the Sun's movement on the ecliptic, an arc-second is equivalent to 24 time-seconds.
.
So if, for a particular interval of interpolation, a linear-interpolation could have an error of 1 arc-second, then a linear-interpolation could have an error of 24 time-seconds.  But that means that it would still be accurate to the nearest minute.
.
In the interpolation for the time of the Solar ecliptic-longitude of 330 degrees (Pisces ingress), the linear-interpolation is accurate within 17 seconds.
.
9 Su
Pisces 5th
Februarius 23rd



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Re: Sun entering Pisces♓

Michael Ossipoff
In reply to this post by Litmus A Freeman
This email originated from outside ECU.

I was using a table of geometric Solar ecliptic-longitude for each day, because that was the first ecliptic-longitude table that I found, and because I assumed that the geometric vs apparent difference wouldn't change the answer.

So what i reported was the time at which the geometic Solar ecliptic-longitude was 330 degrees.  ...because I didn't expect that the apparent/geometic difference would change the ingress-time noticeably.

Of course apparent position has more practical meaning and relevance than does the geometric position.

I found a recently-calculated and published table giving the Sun's apparent R.A. each day.  By that table, the Sun was at apparent ecliptic-longitude 330 at 0457 UTC, as you said

10 M
Pisces 6th
Februarius 24th.

On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 10:36 AM Litmus UCC Zone <[hidden email]> wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

6♓20 UCC

Dear Michael, Karl & Co

I use an ephemeris APP on my phone and www.planetwatcher.com on my laptop. This way I am always using up to date accurate figures, rather than out of date estimates from long ago.

Let me know if you'd like the name of the APP

The table that Karl shared from Cafe Astrology also confirms the time for the Sun entering Pisces♓ as 04:57 UTC on 1 TWELVE-Pisces♓ 13520 UCC (19 February 2020 Gregorian)

Cheers

Litmus

-----------------------
Litmus A Freeman
Creator of the Universal Celestial Calendar (UCC)
www.universalcelestialcalendar.com
On 2/22/20 9:36 PM, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.



On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 1:21 PM Litmus UCC Zone [hidden email] wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

3 Pisces♓ 13520 UCC

Hey Michael

Actually 04:57UTC (on 1 Pisces♓ UCC) ;)

Yours pedantically!

Litmus


When was your source published? Popular sources for sign-ingress were calculated and published decades in advance.  The tiniest uncertainties about positions and motions of themany relevant gravitationally-interacting celestial-bodies can cause a 15-minute error in an ingress-time. 

Pisces 4th


-----------------------
Litmus A Freeman
Creator of the Universal Celestial Calendar (UCC)
www.universalcelestialcalendar.com
On 2/18/20 7:32 AM, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

The astronomical ecliptic-month of Pisces will begin tomorrow at 0444 UTC.

I meant on the 19th at 0444 UTC.

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 2:29 AM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:
Tomorrow (or today, depending on where you are), Tuesday Februarius 18th, at 1155 UTC, the Solar declination will be halfway back up from its Yul value to its Ostara value.

The astronomical ecliptic-month of Pisces will begin tomorrow at 0444 UTC.

That declination halfway back up moment occurs every year about 17 hours after the beginning of ecliptic Pisces.

9 Tu
Aquarius 30th
Februarius 18th, 2020

0729 UTC
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Re: Sun entering Pisces♓

Michael Ossipoff
This email originated from outside ECU.

...which means that advance-calculated ephemerides are a lot more accurate than I'd suggested.

So i gladly retract what I said about a 15-minute error.

10 Tu
Pisces 7th
Februarius 25th

0542 UTC
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Re: Sun entering Pisces♓

Ed Kohout-2
This email originated from outside ECU.

Hi,

The Sun is, from our vantage point, a disk measuring about 37' of arc, so why do we only calculate the moment the center of the Sun ingresses?  As I see it, the Sun is "in" a "sign" the moment the disk "touches" the defined line of ecliptic longitude, and thus is in two signs simultaneously for about 13 or 14 hours.

- Ed


*****************************************

On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 10:43 PM, Michael Ossipoff
This email originated from outside ECU.

...which means that advance-calculated ephemerides are a lot more accurate than I'd suggested.

So i gladly retract what I said about a 15-minute error.

10 Tu
Pisces 7th
Februarius 25th

0542 UTC

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Re: Sun entering Pisces♓

Litmus A Freeman
In reply to this post by Michael Ossipoff
This email originated from outside ECU.

8♓20 UCC

Michael

Cool man, glad we're on the same page. But Ed's point is a good one too, about the apparent size of the Sun disc...

Litmus

-----------------------
Litmus A Freeman
Creator of the Universal Celestial Calendar (UCC)
www.universalcelestialcalendar.com
On 2/25/20 5:42 AM, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

...which means that advance-calculated ephemerides are a lot more accurate than I'd suggested.

So i gladly retract what I said about a 15-minute error.

10 Tu
Pisces 7th
Februarius 25th

0542 UTC
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Re: Sun entering Pisces♓

Michael Ossipoff
This email originated from outside ECU.

Litmus--

The position of the Sun is what we're talking about. Its position is specified by the position of its center.

The claim evidently is that noon starts when the west edge of the Sun reaches the meridian, and noon extends for about 2 minutes until the east edge passes the meridian.

No. Noon is a moment, not a 2-minute period. That's what we mean by noon.

The same can be said for a solstice or an equinox. It's about the Sun's position, and that position is specified by the position of its center.

10 W
Pisces 8th
February 26th


If the west edge of the sun is past the meridian, that doesn't mean make
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Re: Sun entering Pisces♓

Ed Kohout-2
This email originated from outside ECU.

Hi Litmus,

I don't have anything to offer at this point about the IDL, but I have always found it interesting that there are two calendar dates operating simultaneously for 23/24 hours every day.  It defies sensibility, but the West has been determined to live digitally in a very analog world.

Please inform Mr. Opissoff that there is a difference between LAT and LMT when calculating a local "noon" value, and that the "center" of the Sun is perhaps the thing that sundials measure.

- Ed


*****************************************
www.occursionmedia.com

On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 9:02 AM, Michael Ossipoff
This email originated from outside ECU.

Litmus--

The position of the Sun is what we're talking about. Its position is specified by the position of its center.

The claim evidently is that noon starts when the west edge of the Sun reaches the meridian, and noon extends for about 2 minutes until the east edge passes the meridian.

No. Noon is a moment, not a 2-minute period. That's what we mean by noon.

The same can be said for a solstice or an equinox. It's about the Sun's position, and that position is specified by the position of its center.

10 W
Pisces 8th
February 26th


If the west edge of the sun is past the meridian, that doesn't mean make

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Re: Sun entering Pisces♓

Litmus A Freeman
In reply to this post by Michael Ossipoff
This email originated from outside ECU.

9/12/20 UCC

Dear Michael, Ed & Co

Sun Centre

Yes of course, for specifying a moment in time we use the Sun's centre, but this is like taking a photo of a moving vehicle. Everything in the universe is always moving so any points we choose to pinpoint for a particular event are actually a kind of illusion, the Sun doesn't "stop" for a moment when its centre is over a particular reference point, but we can use its centre passing over that point to mark it as an event.

So yes, for the purpose of saying when a particular Tropical Sign (ecliptic month) begins we say it is when the centre of the Sun is at that ecliptic longitude. But Ed is right in saying that the transition from one Sign to another begins when the edge of the Sun's disc reaches that longitude and lasts until it has completely passed across it, just like sunset and sunrise last for just over 2 mins until the whole of the sun has passed across the horizon.

Sun Sign Sandhis!

What I was saying is that this can be considered to be the transition time (called a Sandhi) from one Sign to another and this is valid, just like the Sandhis from one Yuga to another in the Great Year.

I looked up the apparent angular diameter of the Sun, which ranges from 31'27" at aphelion to 32'32" at perihelion. So at our average orbital speed the Sign Sandhi close to aphelion - say Gemini♊ into Cancer♋ or Cancer♋ into Leo♌ - would be around 12.76hrs, whilst near perihelion (Sagittarius♐ into Capricorn♑ or Capricorn♑ into Aquarius♒)  it would be nearer 13.2hrs. But of course those figures need adjusting for the actual orbital speed at those times (which I haven't done yet) and since we move faster at perihelion and slower at aphelion I suppose we would expect the accurate figures to be closer together?!

I guess each Sign Sandhi will vary slightly in length due to those two factors, distance and speed, and should follow the relative lengths of the Signs from Cancer♋ to Capricorn♑, which I shared recently via my 'Orbit' blog.

So if one is born in the first or last 12 hours of a Sign they can be considered to be born in a Sign Sandhi, and I think that in astrology consideration of this is taken for people born at the cusps, where the adjacent Sign's influence is added into the mix!

Solar 'Noon'

Also, don't forget that when you refer to 'noon' as the sun at the meridian that is actually local Solar noon, and varies from clock time quite considerably depending which time zone you're in, the daylight savings farce, and your actual grid ref within the time zone etc etc, but I'm sure you'll be aware of that.

Personally I prefer the term "Mid Day", since 'noon' derives from the same root as 'nine' and apparently was another Roman fuck up as it used to be the ninth hour after sunrise when the main meal of the day was eaten and so was actually originally closer to 3pm than 12pm! :-D

Cheers

Litmus

-----------------------
Litmus A Freeman
Creator of 'The Free Man Calendar' - the Universal Celestial Calendar (UCC)
www.freemancalendar.com
www.universalcelestialcalendar.com
On 2/26/20 4:02 PM, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

Litmus--

The position of the Sun is what we're talking about. Its position is specified by the position of its center.

The claim evidently is that noon starts when the west edge of the Sun reaches the meridian, and noon extends for about 2 minutes until the east edge passes the meridian.

No. Noon is a moment, not a 2-minute period. That's what we mean by noon.

The same can be said for a solstice or an equinox. It's about the Sun's position, and that position is specified by the position of its center.

10 W
Pisces 8th
February 26th


If the west edge of the sun is past the meridian, that doesn't mean make