The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

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The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

Jamison Painter
To: Calendar People.
From: Jamison E. Painter, MA
Re: Calendar Reform.
Date 17 Germinal CCXXVII, Larch

Ladies and Gentlemen, what is the purpose of a calendar? Why did mankind invent such a tool? Fundamentally, a calendar exists to keep track of time. The most important calendars exist for religious and agricultural reasons. There are two calendars that sit at the extreme end of either scale. The Islamic Calendar can ONLY be used as a religious calendar, because it is lunar, and does not keep track of the seasons.
The French Republican Calendar can only be used for agriculture, as it is completely solar, and has no religious use whatsoever.

There are calendars in between these two extremes. One is the Gregorian Calendar, which was derived from the Julian. The old Julian Calendar was both the religious calendar of the Roman State Religion, and an agricultural calendar. The Gregorian is likewise the religious calendar of the Christian Church and the agricultural calendar of the West. This is able to work because both the Pagan Religion of the Romans and the later Christian Religion use the Solar Calendar.

On the other hand, there is the Jewish Calendar, which is luni-solar, which means it depends on BOTH the Sun AND the Moon to stay accurate. Jewish Holidays are structured according to the lunar cycle, but agriculture in the Holy Land depends on the solar year. The Chinese Calendar is similar to this.

The most accurate calendar CURRENTLY IN USE is the Persian Calendar, used in Iran and Afghanistan. This calendar is based on observation, and requires 110,000 years to become inaccurate by a solar day. There is also a tabular form that has the same degree of accuracy. By way of comparison, the Gregorian Calendar loses a day every 3236 years. It should be noted that the New Year of the Persian Calendar falls on the Vernal (Spring) Equinox each year. Originally, and still officially, the calendar relies on observation by astronomers to determine when the Vernal Equinox occurs to start the New Year.

The question that arises is: Is there any calendar that exists that would be equally or more accurate than the Persian Calendar? In fact, there is. The French Republican Calendar begins on the Autumnal Equinox as determined by astronomers at the Observatory of Paris (as opposed to a certain point East of Tehran, Iran in the Persian Calendar). Although observational, which would make determining the New Year occasionally difficult, there have been mathematical proposals to deal with the problem, and I expect that one could use the same rules that apply to the tabular Persian Calendar with a Tabular FRC, and end up with a similar degree of accuracy.

So, why use the French Republican Calendar? (A), it is as accurate as the world's current most accurate calendar. (B), it has no religious influence, which prevents it from preferring and benefiting one religion over another. (C), It is based on Agriculture in the Ile-de-France region which essentially makes it a farmer's almanac for most of Europe and North America, as well as a large part of Asia. These areas of the world produce the VAST majority of the food we eat (at a wild guess I would suggest about 80%, although I may be wrong). (D), workers actually get MORE time off with the 1.5 days they get in a Decade, as opposed to the 1 day they get in a seven-day week. And a second day, Primidi ,could be added to Decadi and half of Quintidi for even more time off. (E), the FRC celebrates holidays that are of interest worldwide. Who would disagree with celebrating Virtue, Genius, Labour, Opinion, and Honours (the last being a day when the State can award people who have provided great service to humanity or the State itself)? Every Leap Year there is an extra day designated for the French Revolution. Any country that hasn't had one of those could substitute anything they liked to celebrate on that day. Five or six days off every year is a pretty good deal, and employers could be obligated to give all workers one Decade off in addition, some time during the year. This would give every worker 15 or 16 days off a year for vacation, which is more than the 14 people usually get now. In addition, each country has its own holidays, like the 4th of July. Such holidays could simply be translated each year to the FRC, and still be celebrated with a day off. (F), the FRC, with its month names and day names, is quite aesthetically pleasing, in a way that other calendars are not (I shall grant that this is a rather subjective concept, of course). (G), the calculation of years dating from the founding of the French Republic celebrates an event of worldwide importance. The creation of the French Republic moved the world closer to a rational, logical form of government. Of course, internally each country could designate their year after anything. In America, we could count from 1776, as long as we did not change the date of the New Year. But for international use, the calendar would celebrate the French Era.

So, there you are. Why I prefer the FRC over any calendar I have yet seen. I encourage everybody to have a look at this under-appreciated calendar, and consider this post as you do. I think some of you might end up agreeing with me.

Regards,
Jamison E. Painter, MA
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Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

Jamison Painter
I stand corrected. The Roman Calendar was LUNAR until the Julian Reform. Caesar borrowed the Solar Calendar concept from Egypt.

Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:

>To: Calendar People.
>From: Jamison E. Painter, MA
>Re: Calendar Reform.
>Date 17 Germinal CCXXVII, Larch
>
>Ladies and Gentlemen, what is the purpose of a calendar? Why did mankind invent such a tool? Fundamentally, a calendar exists to keep track of time. The most important calendars exist for religious and agricultural reasons. There are two calendars that sit at the extreme end of either scale. The Islamic Calendar can ONLY be used as a religious calendar, because it is lunar, and does not keep track of the seasons.
>The French Republican Calendar can only be used for agriculture, as it is completely solar, and has no religious use whatsoever.
>
>There are calendars in between these two extremes. One is the Gregorian Calendar, which was derived from the Julian. The old Julian Calendar was both the religious calendar of the Roman State Religion, and an agricultural calendar. The Gregorian is likewise the religious calendar of the Christian Church and the agricultural calendar of the West. This is able to work because both the Pagan Religion of the Romans and the later Christian Religion use the Solar Calendar.
>
>On the other hand, there is the Jewish Calendar, which is luni-solar, which means it depends on BOTH the Sun AND the Moon to stay accurate. Jewish Holidays are structured according to the lunar cycle, but agriculture in the Holy Land depends on the solar year. The Chinese Calendar is similar to this.
>
>The most accurate calendar CURRENTLY IN USE is the Persian Calendar, used in Iran and Afghanistan. This calendar is based on observation, and requires 110,000 years to become inaccurate by a solar day. There is also a tabular form that has the same degree of accuracy. By way of comparison, the Gregorian Calendar loses a day every 3236 years. It should be noted that the New Year of the Persian Calendar falls on the Vernal (Spring) Equinox each year. Originally, and still officially, the calendar relies on observation by astronomers to determine when the Vernal Equinox occurs to start the New Year.
>
>The question that arises is: Is there any calendar that exists that would be equally or more accurate than the Persian Calendar? In fact, there is. The French Republican Calendar begins on the Autumnal Equinox as determined by astronomers at the Observatory of Paris (as opposed to a certain point East of Tehran, Iran in the Persian Calendar). Although observational, which would make determining the New Year occasionally difficult, there have been mathematical proposals to deal with the problem, and I expect that one could use the same rules that apply to the tabular Persian Calendar with a Tabular FRC, and end up with a similar degree of accuracy.
>
>So, why use the French Republican Calendar? (A), it is as accurate as the world's current most accurate calendar. (B), it has no religious influence, which prevents it from preferring and benefiting one religion over another. (C), It is based on Agriculture in the Ile-de-France region which essentially makes it a farmer's almanac for most of Europe and North America, as well as a large part of Asia. These areas of the world produce the VAST majority of the food we eat (at a wild guess I would suggest about 80%, although I may be wrong). (D), workers actually get MORE time off with the 1.5 days they get in a Decade, as opposed to the 1 day they get in a seven-day week. And a second day, Primidi ,could be added to Decadi and half of Quintidi for even more time off. (E), the FRC celebrates holidays that are of interest worldwide. Who would disagree with celebrating Virtue, Genius, Labour, Opinion, and Honours (the last being a day when the State can award people who have provided great service to humanity or the State itself)? Every Leap Year there is an extra day designated for the French Revolution. Any country that hasn't had one of those could substitute anything they liked to celebrate on that day. Five or six days off every year is a pretty good deal, and employers could be obligated to give all workers one Decade off in addition, some time during the year. This would give every worker 15 or 16 days off a year for vacation, which is more than the 14 people usually get now. In addition, each country has its own holidays, like the 4th of July. Such holidays could simply be translated each year to the FRC, and still be celebrated with a day off. (F), the FRC, with its month names and day names, is quite aesthetically pleasing, in a way that other calendars are not (I shall grant that this is a rather subjective concept, of course). (G), the calculation of years dating from the founding of the French Republic celebrates an event of worldwide importance. The creation of the French Republic moved the world closer to a rational, logical form of government. Of course, internally each country could designate their year after anything. In America, we could count from 1776, as long as we did not change the date of the New Year. But for international use, the calendar would celebrate the French Era.
>
>So, there you are. Why I prefer the FRC over any calendar I have yet seen. I encourage everybody to have a look at this under-appreciated calendar, and consider this post as you do. I think some of you might end up agreeing with me.
>
>Regards,
>Jamison E. Painter, MA
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Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

Walter J Ziobro
In reply to this post by Jamison Painter

Dear Jamison

For a long time, I have been an admirer of the Indian National Civil Calendar, as I liked the way the month lengths were adjusted to the seasons. However, lately I am coming around to a point of view that a more useful arrangement of days is to equalize the quarters of the year by inserting complimentary days outside the months a seasonal points. Such an arrangement of days in a year could be 1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1/2. The French Calendar could be used in this way by distributing the complimentary days in this way

IMO, there are a number of advantages to this arrangement:

1) The quarters are of nearly equal length, such that in any given year the days of the 7 day week will fall on the same days of the months of every quarter

2) Given that the complimentary days are outside any particular month, they may be considered either the 1st day or last day of any quarter, as whichever way users prefer Thus both those who prefer 31-30-30 quarters, and those who prefer 30-30-31 quarters are both satisfied (sorry if you prefer 30-31-30 quarters; Altho such users could learn to think of starting quarters on a middle month)

3) By combining complimentary days with the months in different ways, the varying seasonal lengths can be approximated, Altho not as perfectly as the Indian Civil Calendar. For instance, the northern summer could be arranged with days: 1-30-30-30-2/3, being the longest month, northern autumn: 30-30-30-1, northern winter 30-30-30, being the shortest month, and northern spring 1-30-30-30.

4) A good leap day rule could keep the equinoxes and Solstices occurring on the same calendar date over a long period My preference would be for a 128 year cycle that distributed leap days in  33-33-33-29 year sub cycles This is nearly as accurate as the Iranian astronomical leap day rule

IMO the French Calendar could be well suited for this purpose if the five/six complimentary days were distributed to the seasonal points Then they could be truly universal celebrations of each season

Walter Ziobro




On Saturday, April 6, 2019 Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:

To: Calendar People.
From: Jamison E. Painter, MA
Re: Calendar Reform.
Date 17 Germinal CCXXVII, Larch

Ladies and Gentlemen, what is the purpose of a calendar? Why did mankind invent such a tool? Fundamentally, a calendar exists to keep track of time. The most important calendars exist for religious and agricultural reasons. There are two calendars that sit at the extreme end of either scale. The Islamic Calendar can ONLY be used as a religious calendar, because it is lunar, and does not keep track of the seasons.
The French Republican Calendar can only be used for agriculture, as it is completely solar, and has no religious use whatsoever.

There are calendars in between these two extremes. One is the Gregorian Calendar, which was derived from the Julian. The old Julian Calendar was both the religious calendar of the Roman State Religion, and an agricultural calendar. The Gregorian is likewise the religious calendar of the Christian Church and the agricultural calendar of the West. This is able to work because both the Pagan Religion of the Romans and the later Christian Religion use the Solar Calendar.

On the other hand, there is the Jewish Calendar, which is luni-solar, which means it depends on BOTH the Sun AND the Moon to stay accurate. Jewish Holidays are structured according to the lunar cycle, but agriculture in the Holy Land depends on the solar year. The Chinese Calendar is similar to this.

The most accurate calendar CURRENTLY IN USE is the Persian Calendar, used in Iran and Afghanistan. This calendar is based on observation, and requires 110,000 years to become inaccurate by a solar day. There is also a tabular form that has the same degree of accuracy. By way of comparison, the Gregorian Calendar loses a day every 3236 years. It should be noted that the New Year of the Persian Calendar falls on the Vernal (Spring) Equinox each year. Originally, and still officially, the calendar relies on observation by astronomers to determine when the Vernal Equinox occurs to start the New Year.

The question that arises is: Is there any calendar that exists that would be equally or more accurate than the Persian Calendar? In fact, there is. The French Republican Calendar begins on the Autumnal Equinox as determined by astronomers at the Observatory of Paris (as opposed to a certain point East of Tehran, Iran in the Persian Calendar). Although observational, which would make determining the New Year occasionally difficult, there have been mathematical proposals to deal with the problem, and I expect that one could use the same rules that apply to the tabular Persian Calendar with a Tabular FRC, and end up with a similar degree of accuracy.

So, why use the French Republican Calendar? (A), it is as accurate as the world's current most accurate calendar. (B), it has no religious influence, which prevents it from preferring and benefiting one religion over another. (C), It is based on Agriculture in the Ile-de-France region which essentially makes it a farmer's almanac for most of Europe and North America, as well as a large part of Asia. These areas of the world produce the VAST majority of the food we eat (at a wild guess I would suggest about 80%, although I may be wrong). (D), workers actually get MORE time off with the 1.5 days they get in a Decade, as opposed to the 1 day they get in a seven-day week. And a second day, Primidi ,could be added to Decadi and half of Quintidi for even more time off. (E), the FRC celebrates holidays that are of interest worldwide. Who would disagree with celebrating Virtue, Genius, Labour, Opinion, and Honours (the last being a day when the State can award people who have provided great service to humanity or the State itself)? Every Leap Year there is an extra day designated for the French Revolution. Any country that hasn't had one of those could substitute anything they liked to celebrate on that day. Five or six days off every year is a pretty good deal, and employers could be obligated to give all workers one Decade off in addition, some time during the year. This would give every worker 15 or 16 days off a year for vacation, which is more than the 14 people usually get now. In addition, each country has its own holidays, like the 4th of July. Such holidays could simply be translated each year to the FRC, and still be celebrated with a day off. (F), the FRC, with its month names and day names, is quite aesthetically pleasing, in a way that other calendars are not (I shall grant that this is a rather subjective concept, of course). (G), the calculation of years dating from the founding of the French Republic celebrates an event of worldwide importance. The creation of the French Republic moved the world closer to a rational, logical form of government. Of course, internally each country could designate their year after anything. In America, we could count from 1776, as long as we did not change the date of the New Year. But for international use, the calendar would celebrate the French Era.

So, there you are. Why I prefer the FRC over any calendar I have yet seen. I encourage everybody to have a look at this under-appreciated calendar, and consider this post as you do. I think some of you might end up agreeing with me.

Regards,
Jamison E. Painter, MA
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Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

Jamison Painter


On Saturday, April 6, 2019, Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Jamison

For a long time, I have been an admirer of the Indian National Civil Calendar, as I liked the way the month lengths were adjusted to the seasons. However, lately I am coming around to a point of view that a more useful arrangement of days is to equalize the quarters of the year by inserting complimentary days outside the months a seasonal points. Such an arrangement of days in a year could be 1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1/2. The French Calendar could be used in this way by distributing the complimentary days in this way

I don't know a great deal about the Indian Civil Calendar, so it is hard for me to comment on it. 

IMO, there are a number of advantages to this arrangement:

1) The quarters are of nearly equal length, such that in any given year the days of the 7 day week will fall on the same days of the months of every quarter

2) Given that the complimentary days are outside any particular month, they may be considered either the 1st day or last day of any quarter, as whichever way users prefer Thus both those who prefer 31-30-30 quarters, and those who prefer 30-30-31 quarters are both satisfied (sorry if you prefer 30-31-30 quarters; Altho such users could learn to think of starting quarters on a middle month)

3) By combining complimentary days with the months in different ways, the varying seasonal lengths can be approximated, Altho not as perfectly as the Indian Civil Calendar. For instance, the northern summer could be arranged with days: 1-30-30-30-2/3, being the longest month, northern autumn: 30-30-30-1, northern winter 30-30-30, being the shortest month, and northern spring 1-30-30-30.

4) A good leap day rule could keep the equinoxes and Solstices occurring on the same calendar date over a long period My preference would be for a 128 year cycle that distributed leap days in  33-33-33-29 year sub cycles This is nearly as accurate as the Iranian astronomical leap day rule

One of the proposals for determining Leap Years was to make every fourth year a Leap Year, UNLESS that year was ALSO divisible by 128. Is the the 128 year cycle that you mean? Another proposal was to simply follow the Gregorian rules, and of course, there was the method that was actually used, determining the date of the actual Autumnal Equinox as observed from the Observatory of Paris, and basing Leap Years on that. This is the method that I prefer, as it is the most accurate. That being said, however, it is also the most difficult. 

IMO the French Calendar could be well suited for this purpose if the five/six complimentary days were distributed to the seasonal points Then they could be truly universal celebrations of each season

It is true that dividing up to Complementary Days throughout the year would have the benefits you suggest. But the WEAKNESS of doing that is that it would eliminate the point of having 5 or six days off at the end of each year. 

It should also be noted that, since everyone has the last five or six days off at the end of the year, these Blank Days fall outside the working year. As a result, each quarter of the year in fact is already equal. On the FRC, each month has 30 days, and the working year is 360 days long. Each quarter of the working year is 90 days long, or exactly 3 FRC months. The five or six epegomenal (sp?) days simply don't count as part of the working year. It should ALSO be noted that each day of the Decade has a name, Primidi, Duodi, Tridi, Quartidi, etc. The five or six days at the end of the year are NOT given these designations, placing them even further outside the year proper. They are entirely days of celebration and rest, and not to be included in the Calendar Year Proper.

Walter Ziobro

Jamison E. Painter, MA

18 Germinal CCXXVII, Hemlock 

On Saturday, April 6, 2019 Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:
To: Calendar People.
From: Jamison E. Painter, MA
Re: Calendar Reform.
Date 17 Germinal CCXXVII, Larch

Ladies and Gentlemen, what is the purpose of a calendar? Why did mankind invent such a tool? Fundamentally, a calendar exists to keep track of time. The most important calendars exist for religious and agricultural reasons. There are two calendars that sit at the extreme end of either scale. The Islamic Calendar can ONLY be used as a religious calendar, because it is lunar, and does not keep track of the seasons.
The French Republican Calendar can only be used for agriculture, as it is completely solar, and has no religious use whatsoever.

There are calendars in between these two extremes. One is the Gregorian Calendar, which was derived from the Julian. The old Julian Calendar was both the religious calendar of the Roman State Religion, and an agricultural calendar. The Gregorian is likewise the religious calendar of the Christian Church and the agricultural calendar of the West. This is able to work because both the Pagan Religion of the Romans and the later Christian Religion use the Solar Calendar.

On the other hand, there is the Jewish Calendar, which is luni-solar, which means it depends on BOTH the Sun AND the Moon to stay accurate. Jewish Holidays are structured according to the lunar cycle, but agriculture in the Holy Land depends on the solar year. The Chinese Calendar is similar to this.

The most accurate calendar CURRENTLY IN USE is the Persian Calendar, used in Iran and Afghanistan. This calendar is based on observation, and requires 110,000 years to become inaccurate by a solar day. There is also a tabular form that has the same degree of accuracy. By way of comparison, the Gregorian Calendar loses a day every 3236 years. It should be noted that the New Year of the Persian Calendar falls on the Vernal (Spring) Equinox each year. Originally, and still officially, the calendar relies on observation by astronomers to determine when the Vernal Equinox occurs to start the New Year.

The question that arises is: Is there any calendar that exists that would be equally or more accurate than the Persian Calendar? In fact, there is. The French Republican Calendar begins on the Autumnal Equinox as determined by astronomers at the Observatory of Paris (as opposed to a certain point East of Tehran, Iran in the Persian Calendar). Although observational, which would make determining the New Year occasionally difficult, there have been mathematical proposals to deal with the problem, and I expect that one could use the same rules that apply to the tabular Persian Calendar with a Tabular FRC, and end up with a similar degree of accuracy.

So, why use the French Republican Calendar? (A), it is as accurate as the world's current most accurate calendar. (B), it has no religious influence, which prevents it from preferring and benefiting one religion over another. (C), It is based on Agriculture in the Ile-de-France region which essentially makes it a farmer's almanac for most of Europe and North America, as well as a large part of Asia. These areas of the world produce the VAST majority of the food we eat (at a wild guess I would suggest about 80%, although I may be wrong). (D), workers actually get MORE time off with the 1.5 days they get in a Decade, as opposed to the 1 day they get in a seven-day week. And a second day, Primidi ,could be added to Decadi and half of Quintidi for even more time off. (E), the FRC celebrates holidays that are of interest worldwide. Who would disagree with celebrating Virtue, Genius, Labour, Opinion, and Honours (the last being a day when the State can award people who have provided great service to humanity or the State itself)? Every Leap Year there is an extra day designated for the French Revolution. Any country that hasn't had one of those could substitute anything they liked to celebrate on that day. Five or six days off every year is a pretty good deal, and employers could be obligated to give all workers one Decade off in addition, some time during the year. This would give every worker 15 or 16 days off a year for vacation, which is more than the 14 people usually get now. In addition, each country has its own holidays, like the 4th of July. Such holidays could simply be translated each year to the FRC, and still be celebrated with a day off. (F), the FRC, with its month names and day names, is quite aesthetically pleasing, in a way that other calendars are not (I shall grant that this is a rather subjective concept, of course). (G), the calculation of years dating from the founding of the French Republic celebrates an event of worldwide importance. The creation of the French Republic moved the world closer to a rational, logical form of government. Of course, internally each country could designate their year after anything. In America, we could count from 1776, as long as we did not change the date of the New Year. But for international use, the calendar would celebrate the French Era.

So, there you are. Why I prefer the FRC over any calendar I have yet seen. I encourage everybody to have a look at this under-appreciated calendar, and consider this post as you do. I think some of you might end up agreeing with me.

Regards,
Jamison E. Painter, MA


--
"You must be the change you want to see in the world."

Mahatma Gandhi

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Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

Walter J Ziobro
In reply to this post by Jamison Painter

Dear Jamison

1) The simple 128 leap year rule would simply drop 1 leap day in 128 years from the Julian Calendar It is simple and accurate over long periods, but jittery over short periods causing the equinoxes and solstices to jump around a few days The rule I referenced is a 33 year leap day rule truncated at 128 years Its a grand cycle from Ahmad Burashk's rule based algorithm for the Persian calendar, and sufficiently accurate and useful to result in the equinoxes and solstices occurring on the same calendar dates for long periods

2) Frankly, I think celebrating the seasonal dates every quarter would have much, MUCH more universal appeal that having 5 days off once a year of NO universal significance

Walter Ziobro




On Sunday, April 7, 2019 Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:



On Saturday, April 6, 2019, Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Jamison

For a long time, I have been an admirer of the Indian National Civil Calendar, as I liked the way the month lengths were adjusted to the seasons. However, lately I am coming around to a point of view that a more useful arrangement of days is to equalize the quarters of the year by inserting complimentary days outside the months a seasonal points. Such an arrangement of days in a year could be 1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1-30-30- 30-1-30-30-30-1/2. The French Calendar could be used in this way by distributing the complimentary days in this way

I don't know a great deal about the Indian Civil Calendar, so it is hard for me to comment on it. 

IMO, there are a number of advantages to this arrangement:

1) The quarters are of nearly equal length, such that in any given year the days of the 7 day week will fall on the same days of the months of every quarter

2) Given that the complimentary days are outside any particular month, they may be considered either the 1st day or last day of any quarter, as whichever way users prefer Thus both those who prefer 31-30-30 quarters, and those who prefer 30-30-31 quarters are both satisfied (sorry if you prefer 30-31-30 quarters; Altho such users could learn to think of starting quarters on a middle month)

3) By combining complimentary days with the months in different ways, the varying seasonal lengths can be approximated, Altho not as perfectly as the Indian Civil Calendar. For instance, the northern summer could be arranged with days: 1-30-30-30-2/3, being the longest month, northern autumn: 30-30-30-1, northern winter 30-30-30, being the shortest month, and northern spring 1-30-30-30.

4) A good leap day rule could keep the equinoxes and Solstices occurring on the same calendar date over a long period My preference would be for a 128 year cycle that distributed leap days in  33-33-33-29 year sub cycles This is nearly as accurate as the Iranian astronomical leap day rule

One of the proposals for determining Leap Years was to make every fourth year a Leap Year, UNLESS that year was ALSO divisible by 128. Is the the 128 year cycle that you mean? Another proposal was to simply follow the Gregorian rules, and of course, there was the method that was actually used, determining the date of the actual Autumnal Equinox as observed from the Observatory of Paris, and basing Leap Years on that. This is the method that I prefer, as it is the most accurate. That being said, however, it is also the most difficult. 

IMO the French Calendar could be well suited for this purpose if the five/six complimentary days were distributed to the seasonal points Then they could be truly universal celebrations of each season

It is true that dividing up to Complementary Days throughout the year would have the benefits you suggest. But the WEAKNESS of doing that is that it would eliminate the point of having 5 or six days off at the end of each year. 

It should also be noted that, since everyone has the last five or six days off at the end of the year, these Blank Days fall outside the working year. As a result, each quarter of the year in fact is already equal. On the FRC, each month has 30 days, and the working year is 360 days long. Each quarter of the working year is 90 days long, or exactly 3 FRC months. The five or six epegomenal (sp?) days simply don't count as part of the working year. It should ALSO be noted that each day of the Decade has a name, Primidi, Duodi, Tridi, Quartidi, etc. The five or six days at the end of the year are NOT given these designations, placing them even further outside the year proper. They are entirely days of celebration and rest, and not to be included in the Calendar Year Proper.

Walter Ziobro

Jamison E. Painter, MA

18 Germinal CCXXVII, Hemlock 


On Saturday, April 6, 2019 Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:
To: Calendar People.
From: Jamison E. Painter, MA
Re: Calendar Reform.
Date 17 Germinal CCXXVII, Larch

Ladies and Gentlemen, what is the purpose of a calendar? Why did mankind invent such a tool? Fundamentally, a calendar exists to keep track of time. The most important calendars exist for religious and agricultural reasons. There are two calendars that sit at the extreme end of either scale. The Islamic Calendar can ONLY be used as a religious calendar, because it is lunar, and does not keep track of the seasons.
The French Republican Calendar can only be used for agriculture, as it is completely solar, and has no religious use whatsoever.

There are calendars in between these two extremes. One is the Gregorian Calendar, which was derived from the Julian. The old Julian Calendar was both the religious calendar of the Roman State Religion, and an agricultural calendar. The Gregorian is likewise the religious calendar of the Christian Church and the agricultural calendar of the West. This is able to work because both the Pagan Religion of the Romans and the later Christian Religion use the Solar Calendar.

On the other hand, there is the Jewish Calendar, which is luni-solar, which means it depends on BOTH the Sun AND the Moon to stay accurate. Jewish Holidays are structured according to the lunar cycle, but agriculture in the Holy Land depends on the solar year. The Chinese Calendar is similar to this.

The most accurate calendar CURRENTLY IN USE is the Persian Calendar, used in Iran and Afghanistan. This calendar is based on observation, and requires 110,000 years to become inaccurate by a solar day. There is also a tabular form that has the same degree of accuracy. By way of comparison, the Gregorian Calendar loses a day every 3236 years. It should be noted that the New Year of the Persian Calendar falls on the Vernal (Spring) Equinox each year. Originally, and still officially, the calendar relies on observation by astronomers to determine when the Vernal Equinox occurs to start the New Year.

The question that arises is: Is there any calendar that exists that would be equally or more accurate than the Persian Calendar? In fact, there is. The French Republican Calendar begins on the Autumnal Equinox as determined by astronomers at the Observatory of Paris (as opposed to a certain point East of Tehran, Iran in the Persian Calendar). Although observational, which would make determining the New Year occasionally difficult, there have been mathematical proposals to deal with the problem, and I expect that one could use the same rules that apply to the tabular Persian Calendar with a Tabular FRC, and end up with a similar degree of accuracy.

So, why use the French Republican Calendar? (A), it is as accurate as the world's current most accurate calendar. (B), it has no religious influence, which prevents it from preferring and benefiting one religion over another. (C), It is based on Agriculture in the Ile-de-France region which essentially makes it a farmer's almanac for most of Europe and North America, as well as a large part of Asia. These areas of the world produce the VAST majority of the food we eat (at a wild guess I would suggest about 80%, although I may be wrong). (D), workers actually get MORE time off with the 1.5 days they get in a Decade, as opposed to the 1 day they get in a seven-day week. And a second day, Primidi ,could be added to Decadi and half of Quintidi for even more time off. (E), the FRC celebrates holidays that are of interest worldwide. Who would disagree with celebrating Virtue, Genius, Labour, Opinion, and Honours (the last being a day when the State can award people who have provided great service to humanity or the State itself)? Every Leap Year there is an extra day designated for the French Revolution. Any country that hasn't had one of those could substitute anything they liked to celebrate on that day. Five or six days off every year is a pretty good deal, and employers could be obligated to give all workers one Decade off in addition, some time during the year. This would give every worker 15 or 16 days off a year for vacation, which is more than the 14 people usually get now. In addition, each country has its own holidays, like the 4th of July. Such holidays could simply be translated each year to the FRC, and still be celebrated with a day off. (F), the FRC, with its month names and day names, is quite aesthetically pleasing, in a way that other calendars are not (I shall grant that this is a rather subjective concept, of course). (G), the calculation of years dating from the founding of the French Republic celebrates an event of worldwide importance. The creation of the French Republic moved the world closer to a rational, logical form of government. Of course, internally each country could designate their year after anything. In America, we could count from 1776, as long as we did not change the date of the New Year. But for international use, the calendar would celebrate the French Era.

So, there you are. Why I prefer the FRC over any calendar I have yet seen. I encourage everybody to have a look at this under-appreciated calendar, and consider this post as you do. I think some of you might end up agreeing with me.

Regards,
Jamison E. Painter, MA


--
"You must be the change you want to see in the world."

Mahatma Gandhi

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Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

Jamison Painter
In reply to this post by Jamison Painter
WALTER:

Answer the Statement One: I shall have to examine the 33 year Leap Day Rule further.

Answer to Statement Two: I disagree that the five days being honoured at the end of a FRC year are provincial. In fact, Virtue, Genius, Labour, Opinion, and Honours are INDEED of universal significance. In what part of the world are these things NOT considered important in the life of a nation or an individual? On Virtue Day, we celebrate Virtue and Honesty as one of the most important human traits in one's character. We could give out awards for outstanding individuals in this area. On Genius Day, we honour the intellect of our best and brightest. Again, awards for those who are the best and brightest. On Labour Day, well, 'Nuff said. What country doesn't honour its workers? Awards to the most productive of them. Opinion Day gives us a chance to honour the fact that our nation believes that everyone has the right to an opinion. Awards to those who defend this right. Honours Day is the day that all these awards are presented, plus any others, like military decorations, and anything else. As for the sixth day, Revolution Day, any country that has had something comparable to the French Revolution could honour that. Any country that fought a war for independence could honour that (in addition to the actual date). And other countries could honour any other day that is significant to them.

By the way, Walter, I am enjoying our back-and-forth conversation. Thank you for being part of it.

Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Jamison

1) The simple 128 leap year rule would simply drop 1 leap day in 128 years from the Julian Calendar It is simple and accurate over long periods, but jittery over short periods causing the equinoxes and solstices to jump around a few days The rule I referenced is a 33 year leap day rule truncated at 128 years Its a grand cycle from Ahmad Burashk's rule based algorithm for the Persian calendar, and sufficiently accurate and useful to result in the equinoxes and solstices occurring on the same calendar dates for long periods

2) Frankly, I think celebrating the seasonal dates every quarter would have much, MUCH more universal appeal that having 5 days off once a year of NO universal significance

Walter Ziobro




On Sunday, April 7, 2019 Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:



On Saturday, April 6, 2019, Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Jamison

For a long time, I have been an admirer of the Indian National Civil Calendar, as I liked the way the month lengths were adjusted to the seasons. However, lately I am coming around to a point of view that a more useful arrangement of days is to equalize the quarters of the year by inserting complimentary days outside the months a seasonal points. Such an arrangement of days in a year could be 1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1-30-30- 30-1-30-30-30-1/2. The French Calendar could be used in this way by distributing the complimentary days in this way

I don't know a great deal about the Indian Civil Calendar, so it is hard for me to comment on it. 

IMO, there are a number of advantages to this arrangement:

1) The quarters are of nearly equal length, such that in any given year the days of the 7 day week will fall on the same days of the months of every quarter

2) Given that the complimentary days are outside any particular month, they may be considered either the 1st day or last day of any quarter, as whichever way users prefer Thus both those who prefer 31-30-30 quarters, and those who prefer 30-30-31 quarters are both satisfied (sorry if you prefer 30-31-30 quarters; Altho such users could learn to think of starting quarters on a middle month)

3) By combining complimentary days with the months in different ways, the varying seasonal lengths can be approximated, Altho not as perfectly as the Indian Civil Calendar. For instance, the northern summer could be arranged with days: 1-30-30-30-2/3, being the longest month, northern autumn: 30-30-30-1, northern winter 30-30-30, being the shortest month, and northern spring 1-30-30-30.

4) A good leap day rule could keep the equinoxes and Solstices occurring on the same calendar date over a long period My preference would be for a 128 year cycle that distributed leap days in  33-33-33-29 year sub cycles This is nearly as accurate as the Iranian astronomical leap day rule

One of the proposals for determining Leap Years was to make every fourth year a Leap Year, UNLESS that year was ALSO divisible by 128. Is the the 128 year cycle that you mean? Another proposal was to simply follow the Gregorian rules, and of course, there was the method that was actually used, determining the date of the actual Autumnal Equinox as observed from the Observatory of Paris, and basing Leap Years on that. This is the method that I prefer, as it is the most accurate. That being said, however, it is also the most difficult. 

IMO the French Calendar could be well suited for this purpose if the five/six complimentary days were distributed to the seasonal points Then they could be truly universal celebrations of each season

It is true that dividing up to Complementary Days throughout the year would have the benefits you suggest. But the WEAKNESS of doing that is that it would eliminate the point of having 5 or six days off at the end of each year. 

It should also be noted that, since everyone has the last five or six days off at the end of the year, these Blank Days fall outside the working year. As a result, each quarter of the year in fact is already equal. On the FRC, each month has 30 days, and the working year is 360 days long. Each quarter of the working year is 90 days long, or exactly 3 FRC months. The five or six epegomenal (sp?) days simply don't count as part of the working year. It should ALSO be noted that each day of the Decade has a name, Primidi, Duodi, Tridi, Quartidi, etc. The five or six days at the end of the year are NOT given these designations, placing them even further outside the year proper. They are entirely days of celebration and rest, and not to be included in the Calendar Year Proper.

Walter Ziobro

Jamison E. Painter, MA

18 Germinal CCXXVII, Hemlock 


On Saturday, April 6, 2019 Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:
To: Calendar People.
From: Jamison E. Painter, MA
Re: Calendar Reform.
Date 17 Germinal CCXXVII, Larch

Ladies and Gentlemen, what is the purpose of a calendar? Why did mankind invent such a tool? Fundamentally, a calendar exists to keep track of time. The most important calendars exist for religious and agricultural reasons. There are two calendars that sit at the extreme end of either scale. The Islamic Calendar can ONLY be used as a religious calendar, because it is lunar, and does not keep track of the seasons.
The French Republican Calendar can only be used for agriculture, as it is completely solar, and has no religious use whatsoever.

There are calendars in between these two extremes. One is the Gregorian Calendar, which was derived from the Julian. The old Julian Calendar was both the religious calendar of the Roman State Religion, and an agricultural calendar. The Gregorian is likewise the religious calendar of the Christian Church and the agricultural calendar of the West. This is able to work because both the Pagan Religion of the Romans and the later Christian Religion use the Solar Calendar.

On the other hand, there is the Jewish Calendar, which is luni-solar, which means it depends on BOTH the Sun AND the Moon to stay accurate. Jewish Holidays are structured according to the lunar cycle, but agriculture in the Holy Land depends on the solar year. The Chinese Calendar is similar to this.

The most accurate calendar CURRENTLY IN USE is the Persian Calendar, used in Iran and Afghanistan. This calendar is based on observation, and requires 110,000 years to become inaccurate by a solar day. There is also a tabular form that has the same degree of accuracy. By way of comparison, the Gregorian Calendar loses a day every 3236 years. It should be noted that the New Year of the Persian Calendar falls on the Vernal (Spring) Equinox each year. Originally, and still officially, the calendar relies on observation by astronomers to determine when the Vernal Equinox occurs to start the New Year.

The question that arises is: Is there any calendar that exists that would be equally or more accurate than the Persian Calendar? In fact, there is. The French Republican Calendar begins on the Autumnal Equinox as determined by astronomers at the Observatory of Paris (as opposed to a certain point East of Tehran, Iran in the Persian Calendar). Although observational, which would make determining the New Year occasionally difficult, there have been mathematical proposals to deal with the problem, and I expect that one could use the same rules that apply to the tabular Persian Calendar with a Tabular FRC, and end up with a similar degree of accuracy.

So, why use the French Republican Calendar? (A), it is as accurate as the world's current most accurate calendar. (B), it has no religious influence, which prevents it from preferring and benefiting one religion over another. (C), It is based on Agriculture in the Ile-de-France region which essentially makes it a farmer's almanac for most of Europe and North America, as well as a large part of Asia. These areas of the world produce the VAST majority of the food we eat (at a wild guess I would suggest about 80%, although I may be wrong). (D), workers actually get MORE time off with the 1.5 days they get in a Decade, as opposed to the 1 day they get in a seven-day week. And a second day, Primidi ,could be added to Decadi and half of Quintidi for even more time off. (E), the FRC celebrates holidays that are of interest worldwide. Who would disagree with celebrating Virtue, Genius, Labour, Opinion, and Honours (the last being a day when the State can award people who have provided great service to humanity or the State itself)? Every Leap Year there is an extra day designated for the French Revolution. Any country that hasn't had one of those could substitute anything they liked to celebrate on that day. Five or six days off every year is a pretty good deal, and employers could be obligated to give all workers one Decade off in addition, some time during the year. This would give every worker 15 or 16 days off a year for vacation, which is more than the 14 people usually get now. In addition, each country has its own holidays, like the 4th of July. Such holidays could simply be translated each year to the FRC, and still be celebrated with a day off. (F), the FRC, with its month names and day names, is quite aesthetically pleasing, in a way that other calendars are not (I shall grant that this is a rather subjective concept, of course). (G), the calculation of years dating from the founding of the French Republic celebrates an event of worldwide importance. The creation of the French Republic moved the world closer to a rational, logical form of government. Of course, internally each country could designate their year after anything. In America, we could count from 1776, as long as we did not change the date of the New Year. But for international use, the calendar would celebrate the French Era.

So, there you are. Why I prefer the FRC over any calendar I have yet seen. I encourage everybody to have a look at this under-appreciated calendar, and consider this post as you do. I think some of you might end up agreeing with me.

Regards,
Jamison E. Painter, MA


--
"You must be the change you want to see in the world."

Mahatma Gandhi

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Wasteful & unproductive Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

Brij Bhushan metric VIJ
Jamison, Walter Cc sirs:
>I disagree that the five days being >honoured at the end of a FRC year are >provincial. In fact, Virtue, Genius, Labour, >Opinion, and Honours are INDEED of >universal significance. 
Format of my Metric Calendar Year is known!
While I agree, this meets some demand- for Leap Day Rule BUT too many breaks (almost every quarter) having a holiday & recognition (and/or identifying the right individual), more or less throughout the year ‘event-after-event’ working class shall become lethargic & possibly unproductive, waiting for recognition/identification of next CELEBRITY, shall be wasteful & unproductive to the Organisations (both public & private). 
Any worker would prefer, continued holidaying for 5/6 days paid to take his/their family out to relax their mind?
Moreso, IMO cost for change over from old Gregorian calendar to French Republic Calendar WHEN COMPARED WITH my Modified Gregorian Calendar, to me seems a “positive non-starter”.  A viable suggestion, to take abrupt sample from few factories/men on & off work may save the efforts worth or not wasting Tax-payers money. This may as well defeat the project Calendar Reform dooming Towards it’s death even before taking OFF!
One more point that occurs to me: ‘Advantage gained for 128-years Leap Day Rule, MY=365.2431875 Days, May not be available if the Leap Weeks plan is likely to find its place during the next phase of Cal-Reform, as I placed on divide Six (6) plan or any other scheme, if under thought!
Regards,
Flt Lt Brij Bhushan VIJ (Retd.), IAF✈️
Sunday, 2019 April 07H13:73 (decimal)

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 7, 2019, at 13:09, Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:

WALTER:

Answer the Statement One: I shall have to examine the 33 year Leap Day Rule further.

Answer to Statement Two: I disagree that the five days being honoured at the end of a FRC year are provincial. In fact, Virtue, Genius, Labour, Opinion, and Honours are INDEED of universal significance. In what part of the world are these things NOT considered important in the life of a nation or an individual? On Virtue Day, we celebrate Virtue and Honesty as one of the most important human traits in one's character. We could give out awards for outstanding individuals in this area. On Genius Day, we honour the intellect of our best and brightest. Again, awards for those who are the best and brightest. On Labour Day, well, 'Nuff said. What country doesn't honour its workers? Awards to the most productive of them. Opinion Day gives us a chance to honour the fact that our nation believes that everyone has the right to an opinion. Awards to those who defend this right. Honours Day is the day that all these awards are presented, plus any others, like military decorations, and anything else. As for the sixth day, Revolution Day, any country that has had something comparable to the French Revolution could honour that. Any country that fought a war for independence could honour that (in addition to the actual date). And other countries could honour any other day that is significant to them.

By the way, Walter, I am enjoying our back-and-forth conversation. Thank you for being part of it.

Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Jamison

1) The simple 128 leap year rule would simply drop 1 leap day in 128 years from the Julian Calendar It is simple and accurate over long periods, but jittery over short periods causing the equinoxes and solstices to jump around a few days The rule I referenced is a 33 year leap day rule truncated at 128 years Its a grand cycle from Ahmad Burashk's rule based algorithm for the Persian calendar, and sufficiently accurate and useful to result in the equinoxes and solstices occurring on the same calendar dates for long periods

2) Frankly, I think celebrating the seasonal dates every quarter would have much, MUCH more universal appeal that having 5 days off once a year of NO universal significance

Walter Ziobro




On Sunday, April 7, 2019 Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:



On Saturday, April 6, 2019, Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Jamison

For a long time, I have been an admirer of the Indian National Civil Calendar, as I liked the way the month lengths were adjusted to the seasons. However, lately I am coming around to a point of view that a more useful arrangement of days is to equalize the quarters of the year by inserting complimentary days outside the months a seasonal points. Such an arrangement of days in a year could be 1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1-30-30- 30-1-30-30-30-1/2. The French Calendar could be used in this way by distributing the complimentary days in this way

I don't know a great deal about the Indian Civil Calendar, so it is hard for me to comment on it. 

IMO, there are a number of advantages to this arrangement:

1) The quarters are of nearly equal length, such that in any given year the days of the 7 day week will fall on the same days of the months of every quarter

2) Given that the complimentary days are outside any particular month, they may be considered either the 1st day or last day of any quarter, as whichever way users prefer Thus both those who prefer 31-30-30 quarters, and those who prefer 30-30-31 quarters are both satisfied (sorry if you prefer 30-31-30 quarters; Altho such users could learn to think of starting quarters on a middle month)

3) By combining complimentary days with the months in different ways, the varying seasonal lengths can be approximated, Altho not as perfectly as the Indian Civil Calendar. For instance, the northern summer could be arranged with days: 1-30-30-30-2/3, being the longest month, northern autumn: 30-30-30-1, northern winter 30-30-30, being the shortest month, and northern spring 1-30-30-30.

4) A good leap day rule could keep the equinoxes and Solstices occurring on the same calendar date over a long period My preference would be for a 128 year cycle that distributed leap days in  33-33-33-29 year sub cycles This is nearly as accurate as the Iranian astronomical leap day rule

One of the proposals for determining Leap Years was to make every fourth year a Leap Year, UNLESS that year was ALSO divisible by 128. Is the the 128 year cycle that you mean? Another proposal was to simply follow the Gregorian rules, and of course, there was the method that was actually used, determining the date of the actual Autumnal Equinox as observed from the Observatory of Paris, and basing Leap Years on that. This is the method that I prefer, as it is the most accurate. That being said, however, it is also the most difficult. 

IMO the French Calendar could be well suited for this purpose if the five/six complimentary days were distributed to the seasonal points Then they could be truly universal celebrations of each season

It is true that dividing up to Complementary Days throughout the year would have the benefits you suggest. But the WEAKNESS of doing that is that it would eliminate the point of having 5 or six days off at the end of each year. 

It should also be noted that, since everyone has the last five or six days off at the end of the year, these Blank Days fall outside the working year. As a result, each quarter of the year in fact is already equal. On the FRC, each month has 30 days, and the working year is 360 days long. Each quarter of the working year is 90 days long, or exactly 3 FRC months. The five or six epegomenal (sp?) days simply don't count as part of the working year. It should ALSO be noted that each day of the Decade has a name, Primidi, Duodi, Tridi, Quartidi, etc. The five or six days at the end of the year are NOT given these designations, placing them even further outside the year proper. They are entirely days of celebration and rest, and not to be included in the Calendar Year Proper.

Walter Ziobro

Jamison E. Painter, MA

18 Germinal CCXXVII, Hemlock 


On Saturday, April 6, 2019 Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:
To: Calendar People.
From: Jamison E. Painter, MA
Re: Calendar Reform.
Date 17 Germinal CCXXVII, Larch

Ladies and Gentlemen, what is the purpose of a calendar? Why did mankind invent such a tool? Fundamentally, a calendar exists to keep track of time. The most important calendars exist for religious and agricultural reasons. There are two calendars that sit at the extreme end of either scale. The Islamic Calendar can ONLY be used as a religious calendar, because it is lunar, and does not keep track of the seasons.
The French Republican Calendar can only be used for agriculture, as it is completely solar, and has no religious use whatsoever.

There are calendars in between these two extremes. One is the Gregorian Calendar, which was derived from the Julian. The old Julian Calendar was both the religious calendar of the Roman State Religion, and an agricultural calendar. The Gregorian is likewise the religious calendar of the Christian Church and the agricultural calendar of the West. This is able to work because both the Pagan Religion of the Romans and the later Christian Religion use the Solar Calendar.

On the other hand, there is the Jewish Calendar, which is luni-solar, which means it depends on BOTH the Sun AND the Moon to stay accurate. Jewish Holidays are structured according to the lunar cycle, but agriculture in the Holy Land depends on the solar year. The Chinese Calendar is similar to this.

The most accurate calendar CURRENTLY IN USE is the Persian Calendar, used in Iran and Afghanistan. This calendar is based on observation, and requires 110,000 years to become inaccurate by a solar day. There is also a tabular form that has the same degree of accuracy. By way of comparison, the Gregorian Calendar loses a day every 3236 years. It should be noted that the New Year of the Persian Calendar falls on the Vernal (Spring) Equinox each year. Originally, and still officially, the calendar relies on observation by astronomers to determine when the Vernal Equinox occurs to start the New Year.

The question that arises is: Is there any calendar that exists that would be equally or more accurate than the Persian Calendar? In fact, there is. The French Republican Calendar begins on the Autumnal Equinox as determined by astronomers at the Observatory of Paris (as opposed to a certain point East of Tehran, Iran in the Persian Calendar). Although observational, which would make determining the New Year occasionally difficult, there have been mathematical proposals to deal with the problem, and I expect that one could use the same rules that apply to the tabular Persian Calendar with a Tabular FRC, and end up with a similar degree of accuracy.

So, why use the French Republican Calendar? (A), it is as accurate as the world's current most accurate calendar. (B), it has no religious influence, which prevents it from preferring and benefiting one religion over another. (C), It is based on Agriculture in the Ile-de-France region which essentially makes it a farmer's almanac for most of Europe and North America, as well as a large part of Asia. These areas of the world produce the VAST majority of the food we eat (at a wild guess I would suggest about 80%, although I may be wrong). (D), workers actually get MORE time off with the 1.5 days they get in a Decade, as opposed to the 1 day they get in a seven-day week. And a second day, Primidi ,could be added to Decadi and half of Quintidi for even more time off. (E), the FRC celebrates holidays that are of interest worldwide. Who would disagree with celebrating Virtue, Genius, Labour, Opinion, and Honours (the last being a day when the State can award people who have provided great service to humanity or the State itself)? Every Leap Year there is an extra day designated for the French Revolution. Any country that hasn't had one of those could substitute anything they liked to celebrate on that day. Five or six days off every year is a pretty good deal, and employers could be obligated to give all workers one Decade off in addition, some time during the year. This would give every worker 15 or 16 days off a year for vacation, which is more than the 14 people usually get now. In addition, each country has its own holidays, like the 4th of July. Such holidays could simply be translated each year to the FRC, and still be celebrated with a day off. (F), the FRC, with its month names and day names, is quite aesthetically pleasing, in a way that other calendars are not (I shall grant that this is a rather subjective concept, of course). (G), the calculation of years dating from the founding of the French Republic celebrates an event of worldwide importance. The creation of the French Republic moved the world closer to a rational, logical form of government. Of course, internally each country could designate their year after anything. In America, we could count from 1776, as long as we did not change the date of the New Year. But for international use, the calendar would celebrate the French Era.

So, there you are. Why I prefer the FRC over any calendar I have yet seen. I encourage everybody to have a look at this under-appreciated calendar, and consider this post as you do. I think some of you might end up agreeing with me.

Regards,
Jamison E. Painter, MA


--
"You must be the change you want to see in the world."

Mahatma Gandhi

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Re: Wasteful & unproductive Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

Jamison Painter
FLIGHT LIEUTENANT:

On Sunday, April 7, 2019, Brij Bhushan metric VIJ <[hidden email]> wrote:
Jamison, Walter Cc sirs:
>I disagree that the five days being >honoured at the end of a FRC year are >provincial. In fact, Virtue, Genius, Labour, >Opinion, and Honours are INDEED of >universal significance. 
Format of my Metric Calendar Year is known!
While I agree, this meets some demand- for Leap Day Rule BUT too many breaks (almost every quarter) having a holiday & recognition (and/or identifying the right individual), more or less throughout the year ‘event-after-event’ working class shall become lethargic & possibly unproductive, waiting for recognition/identification of next CELEBRITY, shall be wasteful & unproductive to the Organisations (both public & private). 

I am actually inclined to agree with this. With a break each 90 days, and awards at that time, it is VERY possible that the workforce would become lethargic. And companies having to honour people each year would just be unproductive.

Any worker would prefer, continued holidaying for 5/6 days paid to take his/their family out to relax their mind?

I totally agree.
 
Moreso, IMO cost for change over from old Gregorian calendar to French Republic Calendar WHEN COMPARED WITH my Modified Gregorian Calendar, to me seems a “positive non-starter”.  A viable suggestion, to take abrupt sample from few factories/men on & off work may save the efforts worth or not wasting Tax-payers money. This may as well defeat the project Calendar Reform dooming Towards it’s death even before taking OFF!

To switch from the GC to ANY other calendar will cost a considerable amout of money and effort. Nevertheless, it should be done. The benefits far outweigh the negatives.
 
One more point that occurs to me: ‘Advantage gained for 128-years Leap Day Rule, MY=365.2431875 Days, May not be available if the Leap Weeks plan is likely to find its place during the next phase of Cal-Reform, as I placed on divide Six (6) plan or any other scheme, if under thought!

On this I cannot really comment. The decision on how to determine Leap Years in the FRC would rest with the officials appointed for such reform. I personally favour astronomical observation from Paris. But the 128, 33 year cycle would work also, and would be very accurate. I do NOT know if the Persian Tabular Method would work withe FRC. If it would, then that is the one to use, if we insist on the calendar being tabular.
 
Regards,
Flt Lt Brij Bhushan VIJ (Retd.), IAF✈️
Sunday, 2019 April 07H13:73 (decimal)

Sent from my iPhone

Regards,
Jamison

18 Germinal CCXXVII, Hemlock 

On Apr 7, 2019, at 13:09, Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:

WALTER:

Answer the Statement One: I shall have to examine the 33 year Leap Day Rule further.

Answer to Statement Two: I disagree that the five days being honoured at the end of a FRC year are provincial. In fact, Virtue, Genius, Labour, Opinion, and Honours are INDEED of universal significance. In what part of the world are these things NOT considered important in the life of a nation or an individual? On Virtue Day, we celebrate Virtue and Honesty as one of the most important human traits in one's character. We could give out awards for outstanding individuals in this area. On Genius Day, we honour the intellect of our best and brightest. Again, awards for those who are the best and brightest. On Labour Day, well, 'Nuff said. What country doesn't honour its workers? Awards to the most productive of them. Opinion Day gives us a chance to honour the fact that our nation believes that everyone has the right to an opinion. Awards to those who defend this right. Honours Day is the day that all these awards are presented, plus any others, like military decorations, and anything else. As for the sixth day, Revolution Day, any country that has had something comparable to the French Revolution could honour that. Any country that fought a war for independence could honour that (in addition to the actual date). And other countries could honour any other day that is significant to them.

By the way, Walter, I am enjoying our back-and-forth conversation. Thank you for being part of it.

Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Jamison

1) The simple 128 leap year rule would simply drop 1 leap day in 128 years from the Julian Calendar It is simple and accurate over long periods, but jittery over short periods causing the equinoxes and solstices to jump around a few days The rule I referenced is a 33 year leap day rule truncated at 128 years Its a grand cycle from Ahmad Burashk's rule based algorithm for the Persian calendar, and sufficiently accurate and useful to result in the equinoxes and solstices occurring on the same calendar dates for long periods

2) Frankly, I think celebrating the seasonal dates every quarter would have much, MUCH more universal appeal that having 5 days off once a year of NO universal significance

Walter Ziobro




On Sunday, April 7, 2019 Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:



On Saturday, April 6, 2019, Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Jamison

For a long time, I have been an admirer of the Indian National Civil Calendar, as I liked the way the month lengths were adjusted to the seasons. However, lately I am coming around to a point of view that a more useful arrangement of days is to equalize the quarters of the year by inserting complimentary days outside the months a seasonal points. Such an arrangement of days in a year could be 1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1-30-30- 30-1-30-30-30-1/2. The French Calendar could be used in this way by distributing the complimentary days in this way

I don't know a great deal about the Indian Civil Calendar, so it is hard for me to comment on it. 

IMO, there are a number of advantages to this arrangement:

1) The quarters are of nearly equal length, such that in any given year the days of the 7 day week will fall on the same days of the months of every quarter

2) Given that the complimentary days are outside any particular month, they may be considered either the 1st day or last day of any quarter, as whichever way users prefer Thus both those who prefer 31-30-30 quarters, and those who prefer 30-30-31 quarters are both satisfied (sorry if you prefer 30-31-30 quarters; Altho such users could learn to think of starting quarters on a middle month)

3) By combining complimentary days with the months in different ways, the varying seasonal lengths can be approximated, Altho not as perfectly as the Indian Civil Calendar. For instance, the northern summer could be arranged with days: 1-30-30-30-2/3, being the longest month, northern autumn: 30-30-30-1, northern winter 30-30-30, being the shortest month, and northern spring 1-30-30-30.

4) A good leap day rule could keep the equinoxes and Solstices occurring on the same calendar date over a long period My preference would be for a 128 year cycle that distributed leap days in  33-33-33-29 year sub cycles This is nearly as accurate as the Iranian astronomical leap day rule

One of the proposals for determining Leap Years was to make every fourth year a Leap Year, UNLESS that year was ALSO divisible by 128. Is the the 128 year cycle that you mean? Another proposal was to simply follow the Gregorian rules, and of course, there was the method that was actually used, determining the date of the actual Autumnal Equinox as observed from the Observatory of Paris, and basing Leap Years on that. This is the method that I prefer, as it is the most accurate. That being said, however, it is also the most difficult. 

IMO the French Calendar could be well suited for this purpose if the five/six complimentary days were distributed to the seasonal points Then they could be truly universal celebrations of each season

It is true that dividing up to Complementary Days throughout the year would have the benefits you suggest. But the WEAKNESS of doing that is that it would eliminate the point of having 5 or six days off at the end of each year. 

It should also be noted that, since everyone has the last five or six days off at the end of the year, these Blank Days fall outside the working year. As a result, each quarter of the year in fact is already equal. On the FRC, each month has 30 days, and the working year is 360 days long. Each quarter of the working year is 90 days long, or exactly 3 FRC months. The five or six epegomenal (sp?) days simply don't count as part of the working year. It should ALSO be noted that each day of the Decade has a name, Primidi, Duodi, Tridi, Quartidi, etc. The five or six days at the end of the year are NOT given these designations, placing them even further outside the year proper. They are entirely days of celebration and rest, and not to be included in the Calendar Year Proper.

Walter Ziobro

Jamison E. Painter, MA

18 Germinal CCXXVII, Hemlock 


On Saturday, April 6, 2019 Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:
To: Calendar People.
From: Jamison E. Painter, MA
Re: Calendar Reform.
Date 17 Germinal CCXXVII, Larch

Ladies and Gentlemen, what is the purpose of a calendar? Why did mankind invent such a tool? Fundamentally, a calendar exists to keep track of time. The most important calendars exist for religious and agricultural reasons. There are two calendars that sit at the extreme end of either scale. The Islamic Calendar can ONLY be used as a religious calendar, because it is lunar, and does not keep track of the seasons.
The French Republican Calendar can only be used for agriculture, as it is completely solar, and has no religious use whatsoever.

There are calendars in between these two extremes. One is the Gregorian Calendar, which was derived from the Julian. The old Julian Calendar was both the religious calendar of the Roman State Religion, and an agricultural calendar. The Gregorian is likewise the religious calendar of the Christian Church and the agricultural calendar of the West. This is able to work because both the Pagan Religion of the Romans and the later Christian Religion use the Solar Calendar.

On the other hand, there is the Jewish Calendar, which is luni-solar, which means it depends on BOTH the Sun AND the Moon to stay accurate. Jewish Holidays are structured according to the lunar cycle, but agriculture in the Holy Land depends on the solar year. The Chinese Calendar is similar to this.

The most accurate calendar CURRENTLY IN USE is the Persian Calendar, used in Iran and Afghanistan. This calendar is based on observation, and requires 110,000 years to become inaccurate by a solar day. There is also a tabular form that has the same degree of accuracy. By way of comparison, the Gregorian Calendar loses a day every 3236 years. It should be noted that the New Year of the Persian Calendar falls on the Vernal (Spring) Equinox each year. Originally, and still officially, the calendar relies on observation by astronomers to determine when the Vernal Equinox occurs to start the New Year.

The question that arises is: Is there any calendar that exists that would be equally or more accurate than the Persian Calendar? In fact, there is. The French Republican Calendar begins on the Autumnal Equinox as determined by astronomers at the Observatory of Paris (as opposed to a certain point East of Tehran, Iran in the Persian Calendar). Although observational, which would make determining the New Year occasionally difficult, there have been mathematical proposals to deal with the problem, and I expect that one could use the same rules that apply to the tabular Persian Calendar with a Tabular FRC, and end up with a similar degree of accuracy.

So, why use the French Republican Calendar? (A), it is as accurate as the world's current most accurate calendar. (B), it has no religious influence, which prevents it from preferring and benefiting one religion over another. (C), It is based on Agriculture in the Ile-de-France region which essentially makes it a farmer's almanac for most of Europe and North America, as well as a large part of Asia. These areas of the world produce the VAST majority of the food we eat (at a wild guess I would suggest about 80%, although I may be wrong). (D), workers actually get MORE time off with the 1.5 days they get in a Decade, as opposed to the 1 day they get in a seven-day week. And a second day, Primidi ,could be added to Decadi and half of Quintidi for even more time off. (E), the FRC celebrates holidays that are of interest worldwide. Who would disagree with celebrating Virtue, Genius, Labour, Opinion, and Honours (the last being a day when the State can award people who have provided great service to humanity or the State itself)? Every Leap Year there is an extra day designated for the French Revolution. Any country that hasn't had one of those could substitute anything they liked to celebrate on that day. Five or six days off every year is a pretty good deal, and employers could be obligated to give all workers one Decade off in addition, some time during the year. This would give every worker 15 or 16 days off a year for vacation, which is more than the 14 people usually get now. In addition, each country has its own holidays, like the 4th of July. Such holidays could simply be translated each year to the FRC, and still be celebrated with a day off. (F), the FRC, with its month names and day names, is quite aesthetically pleasing, in a way that other calendars are not (I shall grant that this is a rather subjective concept, of course). (G), the calculation of years dating from the founding of the French Republic celebrates an event of worldwide importance. The creation of the French Republic moved the world closer to a rational, logical form of government. Of course, internally each country could designate their year after anything. In America, we could count from 1776, as long as we did not change the date of the New Year. But for international use, the calendar would celebrate the French Era.

So, there you are. Why I prefer the FRC over any calendar I have yet seen. I encourage everybody to have a look at this under-appreciated calendar, and consider this post as you do. I think some of you might end up agreeing with me.

Regards,
Jamison E. Painter, MA


--
"You must be the change you want to see in the world."

Mahatma Gandhi


 


--
"You must be the change you want to see in the world."

Mahatma Gandhi

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Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

Walter J Ziobro
In reply to this post by Jamison Painter

Re Statement 2:  While those virtues may be worthy of celebration, there is no reason or tradition that they need to be celebrate on those particular five days. There is plenty of tradition and history of many cultures celebrating holidays on or close to the equinoxes and solstices, so all the more reason to distribute those days to the seasonal points

Walter Ziobro




On Sunday, April 7, 2019 Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:

WALTER:

Answer the Statement One: I shall have to examine the 33 year Leap Day Rule further.

Answer to Statement Two: I disagree that the five days being honoured at the end of a FRC year are provincial. In fact, Virtue, Genius, Labour, Opinion, and Honours are INDEED of universal significance. In what part of the world are these things NOT considered important in the life of a nation or an individual? On Virtue Day, we celebrate Virtue and Honesty as one of the most important human traits in one's character. We could give out awards for outstanding individuals in this area. On Genius Day, we honour the intellect of our best and brightest. Again, awards for those who are the best and brightest. On Labour Day, well, 'Nuff said. What country doesn't honour its workers? Awards to the most productive of them. Opinion Day gives us a chance to honour the fact that our nation believes that everyone has the right to an opinion. Awards to those who defend this right. Honours Day is the day that all these awards are presented, plus any others, like military decorations, and anything else. As for the sixth day, Revolution Day, any country that has had something comparable to the French Revolution could honour that. Any country that fought a war for independence could honour that (in addition to the actual date). And other countries could honour any other day that is significant to them.

By the way, Walter, I am enjoying our back-and-forth conversation. Thank you for being part of it.

Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Jamison

1) The simple 128 leap year rule would simply drop 1 leap day in 128 years from the Julian Calendar It is simple and accurate over long periods, but jittery over short periods causing the equinoxes and solstices to jump around a few days The rule I referenced is a 33 year leap day rule truncated at 128 years Its a grand cycle from Ahmad Burashk's rule based algorithm for the Persian calendar, and sufficiently accurate and useful to result in the equinoxes and solstices occurring on the same calendar dates for long periods

2) Frankly, I think celebrating the seasonal dates every quarter would have much, MUCH more universal appeal that having 5 days off once a year of NO universal significance

Walter Ziobro


On Sunday, April 7, 2019 Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Saturday, April 6, 2019, Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Jamison

For a long time, I have been an admirer of the Indian National Civil Calendar, as I liked the way the month lengths were adjusted to the seasons. However, lately I am coming around to a point of view that a more useful arrangement of days is to equalize the quarters of the year by inserting complimentary days outside the months a seasonal points. Such an arrangement of days in a year could be 1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1-30-30- 30-1-30-30-30-1/2. The French Calendar could be used in this way by distributing the complimentary days in this way

I don't know a great deal about the Indian Civil Calendar, so it is hard for me to comment on it. 

IMO, there are a number of advantages to this arrangement:

1) The quarters are of nearly equal length, such that in any given year the days of the 7 day week will fall on the same days of the months of every quarter

2) Given that the complimentary days are outside any particular month, they may be considered either the 1st day or last day of any quarter, as whichever way users prefer Thus both those who prefer 31-30-30 quarters, and those who prefer 30-30-31 quarters are both satisfied (sorry if you prefer 30-31-30 quarters; Altho such users could learn to think of starting quarters on a middle month)

3) By combining complimentary days with the months in different ways, the varying seasonal lengths can be approximated, Altho not as perfectly as the Indian Civil Calendar. For instance, the northern summer could be arranged with days: 1-30-30-30-2/3, being the longest month, northern autumn: 30-30-30-1, northern winter 30-30-30, being the shortest month, and northern spring 1-30-30-30.

4) A good leap day rule could keep the equinoxes and Solstices occurring on the same calendar date over a long period My preference would be for a 128 year cycle that distributed leap days in  33-33-33-29 year sub cycles This is nearly as accurate as the Iranian astronomical leap day rule

One of the proposals for determining Leap Years was to make every fourth year a Leap Year, UNLESS that year was ALSO divisible by 128. Is the the 128 year cycle that you mean? Another proposal was to simply follow the Gregorian rules, and of course, there was the method that was actually used, determining the date of the actual Autumnal Equinox as observed from the Observatory of Paris, and basing Leap Years on that. This is the method that I prefer, as it is the most accurate. That being said, however, it is also the most difficult. 

IMO the French Calendar could be well suited for this purpose if the five/six complimentary days were distributed to the seasonal points Then they could be truly universal celebrations of each season

It is true that dividing up to Complementary Days throughout the year would have the benefits you suggest. But the WEAKNESS of doing that is that it would eliminate the point of having 5 or six days off at the end of each year. 

It should also be noted that, since everyone has the last five or six days off at the end of the year, these Blank Days fall outside the working year. As a result, each quarter of the year in fact is already equal. On the FRC, each month has 30 days, and the working year is 360 days long. Each quarter of the working year is 90 days long, or exactly 3 FRC months. The five or six epegomenal (sp?) days simply don't count as part of the working year. It should ALSO be noted that each day of the Decade has a name, Primidi, Duodi, Tridi, Quartidi, etc. The five or six days at the end of the year are NOT given these designations, placing them even further outside the year proper. They are entirely days of celebration and rest, and not to be included in the Calendar Year Proper.

Walter Ziobro

Jamison E. Painter, MA

18 Germinal CCXXVII, Hemlock 


On Saturday, April 6, 2019 Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:
To: Calendar People.
From: Jamison E. Painter, MA
Re: Calendar Reform.
Date 17 Germinal CCXXVII, Larch

Ladies and Gentlemen, what is the purpose of a calendar? Why did mankind invent such a tool? Fundamentally, a calendar exists to keep track of time. The most important calendars exist for religious and agricultural reasons. There are two calendars that sit at the extreme end of either scale. The Islamic Calendar can ONLY be used as a religious calendar, because it is lunar, and does not keep track of the seasons.
The French Republican Calendar can only be used for agriculture, as it is completely solar, and has no religious use whatsoever.

There are calendars in between these two extremes. One is the Gregorian Calendar, which was derived from the Julian. The old Julian Calendar was both the religious calendar of the Roman State Religion, and an agricultural calendar. The Gregorian is likewise the religious calendar of the Christian Church and the agricultural calendar of the West. This is able to work because both the Pagan Religion of the Romans and the later Christian Religion use the Solar Calendar.

On the other hand, there is the Jewish Calendar, which is luni-solar, which means it depends on BOTH the Sun AND the Moon to stay accurate. Jewish Holidays are structured according to the lunar cycle, but agriculture in the Holy Land depends on the solar year. The Chinese Calendar is similar to this.

The most accurate calendar CURRENTLY IN USE is the Persian Calendar, used in Iran and Afghanistan. This calendar is based on observation, and requires 110,000 years to become inaccurate by a solar day. There is also a tabular form that has the same degree of accuracy. By way of comparison, the Gregorian Calendar loses a day every 3236 years. It should be noted that the New Year of the Persian Calendar falls on the Vernal (Spring) Equinox each year. Originally, and still officially, the calendar relies on observation by astronomers to determine when the Vernal Equinox occurs to start the New Year.

The question that arises is: Is there any calendar that exists that would be equally or more accurate than the Persian Calendar? In fact, there is. The French Republican Calendar begins on the Autumnal Equinox as determined by astronomers at the Observatory of Paris (as opposed to a certain point East of Tehran, Iran in the Persian Calendar). Although observational, which would make determining the New Year occasionally difficult, there have been mathematical proposals to deal with the problem, and I expect that one could use the same rules that apply to the tabular Persian Calendar with a Tabular FRC, and end up with a similar degree of accuracy.

So, why use the French Republican Calendar? (A), it is as accurate as the world's current most accurate calendar. (B), it has no religious influence, which prevents it from preferring and benefiting one religion over another. (C), It is based on Agriculture in the Ile-de-France region which essentially makes it a farmer's almanac for most of Europe and North America, as well as a large part of Asia. These areas of the world produce the VAST majority of the food we eat (at a wild guess I would suggest about 80%, although I may be wrong). (D), workers actually get MORE time off with the 1.5 days they get in a Decade, as opposed to the 1 day they get in a seven-day week. And a second day, Primidi ,could be added to Decadi and half of Quintidi for even more time off. (E), the FRC celebrates holidays that are of interest worldwide. Who would disagree with celebrating Virtue, Genius, Labour, Opinion, and Honours (the last being a day when the State can award people who have provided great service to humanity or the State itself)? Every Leap Year there is an extra day designated for the French Revolution. Any country that hasn't had one of those could substitute anything they liked to celebrate on that day. Five or six days off every year is a pretty good deal, and employers could be obligated to give all workers one Decade off in addition, some time during the year. This would give every worker 15 or 16 days off a year for vacation, which is more than the 14 people usually get now. In addition, each country has its own holidays, like the 4th of July. Such holidays could simply be translated each year to the FRC, and still be celebrated with a day off. (F), the FRC, with its month names and day names, is quite aesthetically pleasing, in a way that other calendars are not (I shall grant that this is a rather subjective concept, of course). (G), the calculation of years dating from the founding of the French Republic celebrates an event of worldwide importance. The creation of the French Republic moved the world closer to a rational, logical form of government. Of course, internally each country could designate their year after anything. In America, we could count from 1776, as long as we did not change the date of the New Year. But for international use, the calendar would celebrate the French Era.

So, there you are. Why I prefer the FRC over any calendar I have yet seen. I encourage everybody to have a look at this under-appreciated calendar, and consider this post as you do. I think some of you might end up agreeing with me.

Regards,
Jamison E. Painter, MA


--
"You must be the change you want to see in the world."

Mahatma Gandhi

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Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

Jamison Painter
In reply to this post by Jamison Painter
WALTEE:

The problem with doing that is people only get one day off at a time. Part of the purpose of having those days at the end of the year is to celebrate for five or six days straight. Just let your hair down and party, more or less (and if you knew me, you would know how amusing a statement that is, since I have probably NEVER "let my hair down and partied" at any point during my life).

Jamison

18 Germinal CCXXVII, Hemlock.

Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Re Statement 2:  While those virtues may be worthy of celebration, there is no reason or tradition that they need to be celebrate on those particular five days. There is plenty of tradition and history of many cultures celebrating holidays on or close to the equinoxes and solstices, so all the more reason to distribute those days to the seasonal points

Walter Ziobro




On Sunday, April 7, 2019 Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:

WALTER:

Answer the Statement One: I shall have to examine the 33 year Leap Day Rule further.

Answer to Statement Two: I disagree that the five days being honoured at the end of a FRC year are provincial. In fact, Virtue, Genius, Labour, Opinion, and Honours are INDEED of universal significance. In what part of the world are these things NOT considered important in the life of a nation or an individual? On Virtue Day, we celebrate Virtue and Honesty as one of the most important human traits in one's character. We could give out awards for outstanding individuals in this area. On Genius Day, we honour the intellect of our best and brightest. Again, awards for those who are the best and brightest. On Labour Day, well, 'Nuff said. What country doesn't honour its workers? Awards to the most productive of them. Opinion Day gives us a chance to honour the fact that our nation believes that everyone has the right to an opinion. Awards to those who defend this right. Honours Day is the day that all these awards are presented, plus any others, like military decorations, and anything else. As for the sixth day, Revolution Day, any country that has had something comparable to the French Revolution could honour that. Any country that fought a war for independence could honour that (in addition to the actual date). And other countries could honour any other day that is significant to them.

By the way, Walter, I am enjoying our back-and-forth conversation. Thank you for being part of it.

Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Jamison

1) The simple 128 leap year rule would simply drop 1 leap day in 128 years from the Julian Calendar It is simple and accurate over long periods, but jittery over short periods causing the equinoxes and solstices to jump around a few days The rule I referenced is a 33 year leap day rule truncated at 128 years Its a grand cycle from Ahmad Burashk's rule based algorithm for the Persian calendar, and sufficiently accurate and useful to result in the equinoxes and solstices occurring on the same calendar dates for long periods

2) Frankly, I think celebrating the seasonal dates every quarter would have much, MUCH more universal appeal that having 5 days off once a year of NO universal significance

Walter Ziobro


On Sunday, April 7, 2019 Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Saturday, April 6, 2019, Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Jamison

For a long time, I have been an admirer of the Indian National Civil Calendar, as I liked the way the month lengths were adjusted to the seasons. However, lately I am coming around to a point of view that a more useful arrangement of days is to equalize the quarters of the year by inserting complimentary days outside the months a seasonal points. Such an arrangement of days in a year could be 1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1-30-30- 30-1-30-30-30-1/2. The French Calendar could be used in this way by distributing the complimentary days in this way

I don't know a great deal about the Indian Civil Calendar, so it is hard for me to comment on it. 

IMO, there are a number of advantages to this arrangement:

1) The quarters are of nearly equal length, such that in any given year the days of the 7 day week will fall on the same days of the months of every quarter

2) Given that the complimentary days are outside any particular month, they may be considered either the 1st day or last day of any quarter, as whichever way users prefer Thus both those who prefer 31-30-30 quarters, and those who prefer 30-30-31 quarters are both satisfied (sorry if you prefer 30-31-30 quarters; Altho such users could learn to think of starting quarters on a middle month)

3) By combining complimentary days with the months in different ways, the varying seasonal lengths can be approximated, Altho not as perfectly as the Indian Civil Calendar. For instance, the northern summer could be arranged with days: 1-30-30-30-2/3, being the longest month, northern autumn: 30-30-30-1, northern winter 30-30-30, being the shortest month, and northern spring 1-30-30-30.

4) A good leap day rule could keep the equinoxes and Solstices occurring on the same calendar date over a long period My preference would be for a 128 year cycle that distributed leap days in  33-33-33-29 year sub cycles This is nearly as accurate as the Iranian astronomical leap day rule

One of the proposals for determining Leap Years was to make every fourth year a Leap Year, UNLESS that year was ALSO divisible by 128. Is the the 128 year cycle that you mean? Another proposal was to simply follow the Gregorian rules, and of course, there was the method that was actually used, determining the date of the actual Autumnal Equinox as observed from the Observatory of Paris, and basing Leap Years on that. This is the method that I prefer, as it is the most accurate. That being said, however, it is also the most difficult. 

IMO the French Calendar could be well suited for this purpose if the five/six complimentary days were distributed to the seasonal points Then they could be truly universal celebrations of each season

It is true that dividing up to Complementary Days throughout the year would have the benefits you suggest. But the WEAKNESS of doing that is that it would eliminate the point of having 5 or six days off at the end of each year. 

It should also be noted that, since everyone has the last five or six days off at the end of the year, these Blank Days fall outside the working year. As a result, each quarter of the year in fact is already equal. On the FRC, each month has 30 days, and the working year is 360 days long. Each quarter of the working year is 90 days long, or exactly 3 FRC months. The five or six epegomenal (sp?) days simply don't count as part of the working year. It should ALSO be noted that each day of the Decade has a name, Primidi, Duodi, Tridi, Quartidi, etc. The five or six days at the end of the year are NOT given these designations, placing them even further outside the year proper. They are entirely days of celebration and rest, and not to be included in the Calendar Year Proper.

Walter Ziobro

Jamison E. Painter, MA

18 Germinal CCXXVII, Hemlock 


On Saturday, April 6, 2019 Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:
To: Calendar People.
From: Jamison E. Painter, MA
Re: Calendar Reform.
Date 17 Germinal CCXXVII, Larch

Ladies and Gentlemen, what is the purpose of a calendar? Why did mankind invent such a tool? Fundamentally, a calendar exists to keep track of time. The most important calendars exist for religious and agricultural reasons. There are two calendars that sit at the extreme end of either scale. The Islamic Calendar can ONLY be used as a religious calendar, because it is lunar, and does not keep track of the seasons.
The French Republican Calendar can only be used for agriculture, as it is completely solar, and has no religious use whatsoever.

There are calendars in between these two extremes. One is the Gregorian Calendar, which was derived from the Julian. The old Julian Calendar was both the religious calendar of the Roman State Religion, and an agricultural calendar. The Gregorian is likewise the religious calendar of the Christian Church and the agricultural calendar of the West. This is able to work because both the Pagan Religion of the Romans and the later Christian Religion use the Solar Calendar.

On the other hand, there is the Jewish Calendar, which is luni-solar, which means it depends on BOTH the Sun AND the Moon to stay accurate. Jewish Holidays are structured according to the lunar cycle, but agriculture in the Holy Land depends on the solar year. The Chinese Calendar is similar to this.

The most accurate calendar CURRENTLY IN USE is the Persian Calendar, used in Iran and Afghanistan. This calendar is based on observation, and requires 110,000 years to become inaccurate by a solar day. There is also a tabular form that has the same degree of accuracy. By way of comparison, the Gregorian Calendar loses a day every 3236 years. It should be noted that the New Year of the Persian Calendar falls on the Vernal (Spring) Equinox each year. Originally, and still officially, the calendar relies on observation by astronomers to determine when the Vernal Equinox occurs to start the New Year.

The question that arises is: Is there any calendar that exists that would be equally or more accurate than the Persian Calendar? In fact, there is. The French Republican Calendar begins on the Autumnal Equinox as determined by astronomers at the Observatory of Paris (as opposed to a certain point East of Tehran, Iran in the Persian Calendar). Although observational, which would make determining the New Year occasionally difficult, there have been mathematical proposals to deal with the problem, and I expect that one could use the same rules that apply to the tabular Persian Calendar with a Tabular FRC, and end up with a similar degree of accuracy.

So, why use the French Republican Calendar? (A), it is as accurate as the world's current most accurate calendar. (B), it has no religious influence, which prevents it from preferring and benefiting one religion over another. (C), It is based on Agriculture in the Ile-de-France region which essentially makes it a farmer's almanac for most of Europe and North America, as well as a large part of Asia. These areas of the world produce the VAST majority of the food we eat (at a wild guess I would suggest about 80%, although I may be wrong). (D), workers actually get MORE time off with the 1.5 days they get in a Decade, as opposed to the 1 day they get in a seven-day week. And a second day, Primidi ,could be added to Decadi and half of Quintidi for even more time off. (E), the FRC celebrates holidays that are of interest worldwide. Who would disagree with celebrating Virtue, Genius, Labour, Opinion, and Honours (the last being a day when the State can award people who have provided great service to humanity or the State itself)? Every Leap Year there is an extra day designated for the French Revolution. Any country that hasn't had one of those could substitute anything they liked to celebrate on that day. Five or six days off every year is a pretty good deal, and employers could be obligated to give all workers one Decade off in addition, some time during the year. This would give every worker 15 or 16 days off a year for vacation, which is more than the 14 people usually get now. In addition, each country has its own holidays, like the 4th of July. Such holidays could simply be translated each year to the FRC, and still be celebrated with a day off. (F), the FRC, with its month names and day names, is quite aesthetically pleasing, in a way that other calendars are not (I shall grant that this is a rather subjective concept, of course). (G), the calculation of years dating from the founding of the French Republic celebrates an event of worldwide importance. The creation of the French Republic moved the world closer to a rational, logical form of government. Of course, internally each country could designate their year after anything. In America, we could count from 1776, as long as we did not change the date of the New Year. But for international use, the calendar would celebrate the French Era.

So, there you are. Why I prefer the FRC over any calendar I have yet seen. I encourage everybody to have a look at this under-appreciated calendar, and consider this post as you do. I think some of you might end up agreeing with me.

Regards,
Jamison E. Painter, MA


--
"You must be the change you want to see in the world."

Mahatma Gandhi

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Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

Jamison Painter
In reply to this post by Jamison Painter
WALTER:

I apologise for misspelling your name in the past email.

Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>WALTEE:
>
>The problem with doing that is people only get one day off at a time. Part of the purpose of having those days at the end of the year is to celebrate for five or six days straight. Just let your hair down and party, more or less (and if you knew me, you would know how amusing a statement that is, since I have probably NEVER "let my hair down and partied" at any point during my life).
>
>Jamison
>
>18 Germinal CCXXVII, Hemlock.
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Indian National Calendar Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

k.palmen@btinternet.com
In reply to this post by Jamison Painter
Dear Jamison and Calendar People

The Indian National Calendar is a version of the Hindu calendar that is fixed relative to the Gregorian Calendar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_national_calendar 
In a leap year the first six months have 31 days and the remaining months have 30 days as in some Iranian calendars. This arrangement helps ensure that the months correspond to the signs of the tropical zodiac. It is therefore quite different for Walter's Balanced French Republican Calendar even if each of the complementary days were included in a neighbouring month.

Karl

Monday Bata April 2019
----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 07/04/2019 - 19:14 (BST)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)



On Saturday, April 6, 2019, Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Jamison

For a long time, I have been an admirer of the Indian National Civil Calendar, as I liked the way the month lengths were adjusted to the seasons. However, lately I am coming around to a point of view that a more useful arrangement of days is to equalize the quarters of the year by inserting complimentary days outside the months a seasonal points. Such an arrangement of days in a year could be 1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1/2. The French Calendar could be used in this way by distributing the complimentary days in this way

I don't know a great deal about the Indian Civil Calendar, so it is hard for me to comment on it. 

IMO, there are a number of advantages to this arrangement:

1) The quarters are of nearly equal length, such that in any given year the days of the 7 day week will fall on the same days of the months of every quarter

2) Given that the complimentary days are outside any particular month, they may be considered either the 1st day or last day of any quarter, as whichever way users prefer Thus both those who prefer 31-30-30 quarters, and those who prefer 30-30-31 quarters are both satisfied (sorry if you prefer 30-31-30 quarters; Altho such users could learn to think of starting quarters on a middle month)

3) By combining complimentary days with the months in different ways, the varying seasonal lengths can be approximated, Altho not as perfectly as the Indian Civil Calendar. For instance, the northern summer could be arranged with days: 1-30-30-30-2/3, being the longest month, northern autumn: 30-30-30-1, northern winter 30-30-30, being the shortest month, and northern spring 1-30-30-30.

4) A good leap day rule could keep the equinoxes and Solstices occurring on the same calendar date over a long period My preference would be for a 128 year cycle that distributed leap days in  33-33-33-29 year sub cycles This is nearly as accurate as the Iranian astronomical leap day rule

One of the proposals for determining Leap Years was to make every fourth year a Leap Year, UNLESS that year was ALSO divisible by 128. Is the the 128 year cycle that you mean? Another proposal was to simply follow the Gregorian rules, and of course, there was the method that was actually used, determining the date of the actual Autumnal Equinox as observed from the Observatory of Paris, and basing Leap Years on that. This is the method that I prefer, as it is the most accurate. That being said, however, it is also the most difficult. 

IMO the French Calendar could be well suited for this purpose if the five/six complimentary days were distributed to the seasonal points Then they could be truly universal celebrations of each season

It is true that dividing up to Complementary Days throughout the year would have the benefits you suggest. But the WEAKNESS of doing that is that it would eliminate the point of having 5 or six days off at the end of each year. 

It should also be noted that, since everyone has the last five or six days off at the end of the year, these Blank Days fall outside the working year. As a result, each quarter of the year in fact is already equal. On the FRC, each month has 30 days, and the working year is 360 days long. Each quarter of the working year is 90 days long, or exactly 3 FRC months. The five or six epegomenal (sp?) days simply don't count as part of the working year. It should ALSO be noted that each day of the Decade has a name, Primidi, Duodi, Tridi, Quartidi, etc. The five or six days at the end of the year are NOT given these designations, placing them even further outside the year proper. They are entirely days of celebration and rest, and not to be included in the Calendar Year Proper.

Walter Ziobro

Jamison E. Painter, MA

18 Germinal CCXXVII, Hemlock 

On Saturday, April 6, 2019 Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:
To: Calendar People.
From: Jamison E. Painter, MA
Re: Calendar Reform.
Date 17 Germinal CCXXVII, Larch

Ladies and Gentlemen, what is the purpose of a calendar? Why did mankind invent such a tool? Fundamentally, a calendar exists to keep track of time. The most important calendars exist for religious and agricultural reasons. There are two calendars that sit at the extreme end of either scale. The Islamic Calendar can ONLY be used as a religious calendar, because it is lunar, and does not keep track of the seasons.
The French Republican Calendar can only be used for agriculture, as it is completely solar, and has no religious use whatsoever.

There are calendars in between these two extremes. One is the Gregorian Calendar, which was derived from the Julian. The old Julian Calendar was both the religious calendar of the Roman State Religion, and an agricultural calendar. The Gregorian is likewise the religious calendar of the Christian Church and the agricultural calendar of the West. This is able to work because both the Pagan Religion of the Romans and the later Christian Religion use the Solar Calendar.

On the other hand, there is the Jewish Calendar, which is luni-solar, which means it depends on BOTH the Sun AND the Moon to stay accurate. Jewish Holidays are structured according to the lunar cycle, but agriculture in the Holy Land depends on the solar year. The Chinese Calendar is similar to this.

The most accurate calendar CURRENTLY IN USE is the Persian Calendar, used in Iran and Afghanistan. This calendar is based on observation, and requires 110,000 years to become inaccurate by a solar day. There is also a tabular form that has the same degree of accuracy. By way of comparison, the Gregorian Calendar loses a day every 3236 years. It should be noted that the New Year of the Persian Calendar falls on the Vernal (Spring) Equinox each year. Originally, and still officially, the calendar relies on observation by astronomers to determine when the Vernal Equinox occurs to start the New Year.

The question that arises is: Is there any calendar that exists that would be equally or more accurate than the Persian Calendar? In fact, there is. The French Republican Calendar begins on the Autumnal Equinox as determined by astronomers at the Observatory of Paris (as opposed to a certain point East of Tehran, Iran in the Persian Calendar). Although observational, which would make determining the New Year occasionally difficult, there have been mathematical proposals to deal with the problem, and I expect that one could use the same rules that apply to the tabular Persian Calendar with a Tabular FRC, and end up with a similar degree of accuracy.

So, why use the French Republican Calendar? (A), it is as accurate as the world's current most accurate calendar. (B), it has no religious influence, which prevents it from preferring and benefiting one religion over another. (C), It is based on Agriculture in the Ile-de-France region which essentially makes it a farmer's almanac for most of Europe and North America, as well as a large part of Asia. These areas of the world produce the VAST majority of the food we eat (at a wild guess I would suggest about 80%, although I may be wrong). (D), workers actually get MORE time off with the 1.5 days they get in a Decade, as opposed to the 1 day they get in a seven-day week. And a second day, Primidi ,could be added to Decadi and half of Quintidi for even more time off. (E), the FRC celebrates holidays that are of interest worldwide. Who would disagree with celebrating Virtue, Genius, Labour, Opinion, and Honours (the last being a day when the State can award people who have provided great service to humanity or the State itself)? Every Leap Year there is an extra day designated for the French Revolution. Any country that hasn't had one of those could substitute anything they liked to celebrate on that day. Five or six days off every year is a pretty good deal, and employers could be obligated to give all workers one Decade off in addition, some time during the year. This would give every worker 15 or 16 days off a year for vacation, which is more than the 14 people usually get now. In addition, each country has its own holidays, like the 4th of July. Such holidays could simply be translated each year to the FRC, and still be celebrated with a day off. (F), the FRC, with its month names and day names, is quite aesthetically pleasing, in a way that other calendars are not (I shall grant that this is a rather subjective concept, of course). (G), the calculation of years dating from the founding of the French Republic celebrates an event of worldwide importance. The creation of the French Republic moved the world closer to a rational, logical form of government. Of course, internally each country could designate their year after anything. In America, we could count from 1776, as long as we did not change the date of the New Year. But for international use, the calendar would celebrate the French Era.

So, there you are. Why I prefer the FRC over any calendar I have yet seen. I encourage everybody to have a look at this under-appreciated calendar, and consider this post as you do. I think some of you might end up agreeing with me.

Regards,
Jamison E. Painter, MA


--
"You must be the change you want to see in the world."

Mahatma Gandhi



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Re: Indian National Calendar Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

Jamison Painter
Indeed, that is rather different. And you cannot really add any of the Complementary Days to any month proper, as that eliminates the benefit of having all months begin on a Primidi and close on the third Decadi.

Jamison

19 Germinal CCXXVII, Radish

K PALMEN <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Jamison and Calendar People

The Indian National Calendar is a version of the Hindu calendar that is fixed relative to the Gregorian Calendar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_national_calendar 
In a leap year the first six months have 31 days and the remaining months have 30 days as in some Iranian calendars. This arrangement helps ensure that the months correspond to the signs of the tropical zodiac. It is therefore quite different for Walter's Balanced French Republican Calendar even if each of the complementary days were included in a neighbouring month.

Karl

Monday Bata April 2019
----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 07/04/2019 - 19:14 (BST)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)



On Saturday, April 6, 2019, Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Jamison

For a long time, I have been an admirer of the Indian National Civil Calendar, as I liked the way the month lengths were adjusted to the seasons. However, lately I am coming around to a point of view that a more useful arrangement of days is to equalize the quarters of the year by inserting complimentary days outside the months a seasonal points. Such an arrangement of days in a year could be 1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1/2. The French Calendar could be used in this way by distributing the complimentary days in this way

I don't know a great deal about the Indian Civil Calendar, so it is hard for me to comment on it. 

IMO, there are a number of advantages to this arrangement:

1) The quarters are of nearly equal length, such that in any given year the days of the 7 day week will fall on the same days of the months of every quarter

2) Given that the complimentary days are outside any particular month, they may be considered either the 1st day or last day of any quarter, as whichever way users prefer Thus both those who prefer 31-30-30 quarters, and those who prefer 30-30-31 quarters are both satisfied (sorry if you prefer 30-31-30 quarters; Altho such users could learn to think of starting quarters on a middle month)

3) By combining complimentary days with the months in different ways, the varying seasonal lengths can be approximated, Altho not as perfectly as the Indian Civil Calendar. For instance, the northern summer could be arranged with days: 1-30-30-30-2/3, being the longest month, northern autumn: 30-30-30-1, northern winter 30-30-30, being the shortest month, and northern spring 1-30-30-30.

4) A good leap day rule could keep the equinoxes and Solstices occurring on the same calendar date over a long period My preference would be for a 128 year cycle that distributed leap days in  33-33-33-29 year sub cycles This is nearly as accurate as the Iranian astronomical leap day rule

One of the proposals for determining Leap Years was to make every fourth year a Leap Year, UNLESS that year was ALSO divisible by 128. Is the the 128 year cycle that you mean? Another proposal was to simply follow the Gregorian rules, and of course, there was the method that was actually used, determining the date of the actual Autumnal Equinox as observed from the Observatory of Paris, and basing Leap Years on that. This is the method that I prefer, as it is the most accurate. That being said, however, it is also the most difficult. 

IMO the French Calendar could be well suited for this purpose if the five/six complimentary days were distributed to the seasonal points Then they could be truly universal celebrations of each season

It is true that dividing up to Complementary Days throughout the year would have the benefits you suggest. But the WEAKNESS of doing that is that it would eliminate the point of having 5 or six days off at the end of each year. 

It should also be noted that, since everyone has the last five or six days off at the end of the year, these Blank Days fall outside the working year. As a result, each quarter of the year in fact is already equal. On the FRC, each month has 30 days, and the working year is 360 days long. Each quarter of the working year is 90 days long, or exactly 3 FRC months. The five or six epegomenal (sp?) days simply don't count as part of the working year. It should ALSO be noted that each day of the Decade has a name, Primidi, Duodi, Tridi, Quartidi, etc. The five or six days at the end of the year are NOT given these designations, placing them even further outside the year proper. They are entirely days of celebration and rest, and not to be included in the Calendar Year Proper.

Walter Ziobro

Jamison E. Painter, MA

18 Germinal CCXXVII, Hemlock 

On Saturday, April 6, 2019 Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:
To: Calendar People.
From: Jamison E. Painter, MA
Re: Calendar Reform.
Date 17 Germinal CCXXVII, Larch

Ladies and Gentlemen, what is the purpose of a calendar? Why did mankind invent such a tool? Fundamentally, a calendar exists to keep track of time. The most important calendars exist for religious and agricultural reasons. There are two calendars that sit at the extreme end of either scale. The Islamic Calendar can ONLY be used as a religious calendar, because it is lunar, and does not keep track of the seasons.
The French Republican Calendar can only be used for agriculture, as it is completely solar, and has no religious use whatsoever.

There are calendars in between these two extremes. One is the Gregorian Calendar, which was derived from the Julian. The old Julian Calendar was both the religious calendar of the Roman State Religion, and an agricultural calendar. The Gregorian is likewise the religious calendar of the Christian Church and the agricultural calendar of the West. This is able to work because both the Pagan Religion of the Romans and the later Christian Religion use the Solar Calendar.

On the other hand, there is the Jewish Calendar, which is luni-solar, which means it depends on BOTH the Sun AND the Moon to stay accurate. Jewish Holidays are structured according to the lunar cycle, but agriculture in the Holy Land depends on the solar year. The Chinese Calendar is similar to this.

The most accurate calendar CURRENTLY IN USE is the Persian Calendar, used in Iran and Afghanistan. This calendar is based on observation, and requires 110,000 years to become inaccurate by a solar day. There is also a tabular form that has the same degree of accuracy. By way of comparison, the Gregorian Calendar loses a day every 3236 years. It should be noted that the New Year of the Persian Calendar falls on the Vernal (Spring) Equinox each year. Originally, and still officially, the calendar relies on observation by astronomers to determine when the Vernal Equinox occurs to start the New Year.

The question that arises is: Is there any calendar that exists that would be equally or more accurate than the Persian Calendar? In fact, there is. The French Republican Calendar begins on the Autumnal Equinox as determined by astronomers at the Observatory of Paris (as opposed to a certain point East of Tehran, Iran in the Persian Calendar). Although observational, which would make determining the New Year occasionally difficult, there have been mathematical proposals to deal with the problem, and I expect that one could use the same rules that apply to the tabular Persian Calendar with a Tabular FRC, and end up with a similar degree of accuracy.

So, why use the French Republican Calendar? (A), it is as accurate as the world's current most accurate calendar. (B), it has no religious influence, which prevents it from preferring and benefiting one religion over another. (C), It is based on Agriculture in the Ile-de-France region which essentially makes it a farmer's almanac for most of Europe and North America, as well as a large part of Asia. These areas of the world produce the VAST majority of the food we eat (at a wild guess I would suggest about 80%, although I may be wrong). (D), workers actually get MORE time off with the 1.5 days they get in a Decade, as opposed to the 1 day they get in a seven-day week. And a second day, Primidi ,could be added to Decadi and half of Quintidi for even more time off. (E), the FRC celebrates holidays that are of interest worldwide. Who would disagree with celebrating Virtue, Genius, Labour, Opinion, and Honours (the last being a day when the State can award people who have provided great service to humanity or the State itself)? Every Leap Year there is an extra day designated for the French Revolution. Any country that hasn't had one of those could substitute anything they liked to celebrate on that day. Five or six days off every year is a pretty good deal, and employers could be obligated to give all workers one Decade off in addition, some time during the year. This would give every worker 15 or 16 days off a year for vacation, which is more than the 14 people usually get now. In addition, each country has its own holidays, like the 4th of July. Such holidays could simply be translated each year to the FRC, and still be celebrated with a day off. (F), the FRC, with its month names and day names, is quite aesthetically pleasing, in a way that other calendars are not (I shall grant that this is a rather subjective concept, of course). (G), the calculation of years dating from the founding of the French Republic celebrates an event of worldwide importance. The creation of the French Republic moved the world closer to a rational, logical form of government. Of course, internally each country could designate their year after anything. In America, we could count from 1776, as long as we did not change the date of the New Year. But for international use, the calendar would celebrate the French Era.

So, there you are. Why I prefer the FRC over any calendar I have yet seen. I encourage everybody to have a look at this under-appreciated calendar, and consider this post as you do. I think some of you might end up agreeing with me.

Regards,
Jamison E. Painter, MA


--
"You must be the change you want to see in the world."

Mahatma Gandhi



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Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

k.palmen@btinternet.com
In reply to this post by Jamison Painter
Dear Walter, Jamison and Calendar People

One problem with the Balanced French Republican Calendar is that the complementary days do not come on or very close to the equinox and solstice dates. If the first day of the year were to be a southward equinox day or a neighbouring day to that, the complementary day for the northward equinox would be too late.

The Indian national and Iranian calendar get round that problem by having 31-day months in the northern summer and shorter months in the rest of the year.

Karl

Monday Beta April 2019

----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 08/04/2019 - 03:37 (BST)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

WALTER:

I apologise for misspelling your name in the past email.

Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>WALTEE:
>
>The problem with doing that is people only get one day off at a time. Part of the purpose of having those days at the end of the year is to celebrate for five or six days straight. Just let your hair down and party, more or less (and if you knew me, you would know how amusing a statement that is, since I have probably NEVER "let my hair down and partied" at any point during my life).
>
>Jamison
>
>18 Germinal CCXXVII, Hemlock.
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Re: Indian National Calendar Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

k.palmen@btinternet.com
In reply to this post by Jamison Painter
Dear Jamison and Calendar People

Some months would have to have a 'blank day' an extradecadal day.

Karl
----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 08/04/2019 - 11:24 (BST)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: Indian National Calendar Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

Indeed, that is rather different. And you cannot really add any of the Complementary Days to any month proper, as that eliminates the benefit of having all months begin on a Primidi and close on the third Decadi.

Jamison

19 Germinal CCXXVII, Radish

K PALMEN <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Jamison and Calendar People

The Indian National Calendar is a version of the Hindu calendar that is fixed relative to the Gregorian Calendar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_national_calendar 
In a leap year the first six months have 31 days and the remaining months have 30 days as in some Iranian calendars. This arrangement helps ensure that the months correspond to the signs of the tropical zodiac. It is therefore quite different for Walter's Balanced French Republican Calendar even if each of the complementary days were included in a neighbouring month.

Karl

Monday Bata April 2019
----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 07/04/2019 - 19:14 (BST)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)



On Saturday, April 6, 2019, Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Jamison

For a long time, I have been an admirer of the Indian National Civil Calendar, as I liked the way the month lengths were adjusted to the seasons. However, lately I am coming around to a point of view that a more useful arrangement of days is to equalize the quarters of the year by inserting complimentary days outside the months a seasonal points. Such an arrangement of days in a year could be 1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1/2. The French Calendar could be used in this way by distributing the complimentary days in this way

I don't know a great deal about the Indian Civil Calendar, so it is hard for me to comment on it. 

IMO, there are a number of advantages to this arrangement:

1) The quarters are of nearly equal length, such that in any given year the days of the 7 day week will fall on the same days of the months of every quarter

2) Given that the complimentary days are outside any particular month, they may be considered either the 1st day or last day of any quarter, as whichever way users prefer Thus both those who prefer 31-30-30 quarters, and those who prefer 30-30-31 quarters are both satisfied (sorry if you prefer 30-31-30 quarters; Altho such users could learn to think of starting quarters on a middle month)

3) By combining complimentary days with the months in different ways, the varying seasonal lengths can be approximated, Altho not as perfectly as the Indian Civil Calendar. For instance, the northern summer could be arranged with days: 1-30-30-30-2/3, being the longest month, northern autumn: 30-30-30-1, northern winter 30-30-30, being the shortest month, and northern spring 1-30-30-30.

4) A good leap day rule could keep the equinoxes and Solstices occurring on the same calendar date over a long period My preference would be for a 128 year cycle that distributed leap days in  33-33-33-29 year sub cycles This is nearly as accurate as the Iranian astronomical leap day rule

One of the proposals for determining Leap Years was to make every fourth year a Leap Year, UNLESS that year was ALSO divisible by 128. Is the the 128 year cycle that you mean? Another proposal was to simply follow the Gregorian rules, and of course, there was the method that was actually used, determining the date of the actual Autumnal Equinox as observed from the Observatory of Paris, and basing Leap Years on that. This is the method that I prefer, as it is the most accurate. That being said, however, it is also the most difficult. 

IMO the French Calendar could be well suited for this purpose if the five/six complimentary days were distributed to the seasonal points Then they could be truly universal celebrations of each season

It is true that dividing up to Complementary Days throughout the year would have the benefits you suggest. But the WEAKNESS of doing that is that it would eliminate the point of having 5 or six days off at the end of each year. 

It should also be noted that, since everyone has the last five or six days off at the end of the year, these Blank Days fall outside the working year. As a result, each quarter of the year in fact is already equal. On the FRC, each month has 30 days, and the working year is 360 days long. Each quarter of the working year is 90 days long, or exactly 3 FRC months. The five or six epegomenal (sp?) days simply don't count as part of the working year. It should ALSO be noted that each day of the Decade has a name, Primidi, Duodi, Tridi, Quartidi, etc. The five or six days at the end of the year are NOT given these designations, placing them even further outside the year proper. They are entirely days of celebration and rest, and not to be included in the Calendar Year Proper.

Walter Ziobro

Jamison E. Painter, MA

18 Germinal CCXXVII, Hemlock 

On Saturday, April 6, 2019 Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:
To: Calendar People.
From: Jamison E. Painter, MA
Re: Calendar Reform.
Date 17 Germinal CCXXVII, Larch

Ladies and Gentlemen, what is the purpose of a calendar? Why did mankind invent such a tool? Fundamentally, a calendar exists to keep track of time. The most important calendars exist for religious and agricultural reasons. There are two calendars that sit at the extreme end of either scale. The Islamic Calendar can ONLY be used as a religious calendar, because it is lunar, and does not keep track of the seasons.
The French Republican Calendar can only be used for agriculture, as it is completely solar, and has no religious use whatsoever.

There are calendars in between these two extremes. One is the Gregorian Calendar, which was derived from the Julian. The old Julian Calendar was both the religious calendar of the Roman State Religion, and an agricultural calendar. The Gregorian is likewise the religious calendar of the Christian Church and the agricultural calendar of the West. This is able to work because both the Pagan Religion of the Romans and the later Christian Religion use the Solar Calendar.

On the other hand, there is the Jewish Calendar, which is luni-solar, which means it depends on BOTH the Sun AND the Moon to stay accurate. Jewish Holidays are structured according to the lunar cycle, but agriculture in the Holy Land depends on the solar year. The Chinese Calendar is similar to this.

The most accurate calendar CURRENTLY IN USE is the Persian Calendar, used in Iran and Afghanistan. This calendar is based on observation, and requires 110,000 years to become inaccurate by a solar day. There is also a tabular form that has the same degree of accuracy. By way of comparison, the Gregorian Calendar loses a day every 3236 years. It should be noted that the New Year of the Persian Calendar falls on the Vernal (Spring) Equinox each year. Originally, and still officially, the calendar relies on observation by astronomers to determine when the Vernal Equinox occurs to start the New Year.

The question that arises is: Is there any calendar that exists that would be equally or more accurate than the Persian Calendar? In fact, there is. The French Republican Calendar begins on the Autumnal Equinox as determined by astronomers at the Observatory of Paris (as opposed to a certain point East of Tehran, Iran in the Persian Calendar). Although observational, which would make determining the New Year occasionally difficult, there have been mathematical proposals to deal with the problem, and I expect that one could use the same rules that apply to the tabular Persian Calendar with a Tabular FRC, and end up with a similar degree of accuracy.

So, why use the French Republican Calendar? (A), it is as accurate as the world's current most accurate calendar. (B), it has no religious influence, which prevents it from preferring and benefiting one religion over another. (C), It is based on Agriculture in the Ile-de-France region which essentially makes it a farmer's almanac for most of Europe and North America, as well as a large part of Asia. These areas of the world produce the VAST majority of the food we eat (at a wild guess I would suggest about 80%, although I may be wrong). (D), workers actually get MORE time off with the 1.5 days they get in a Decade, as opposed to the 1 day they get in a seven-day week. And a second day, Primidi ,could be added to Decadi and half of Quintidi for even more time off. (E), the FRC celebrates holidays that are of interest worldwide. Who would disagree with celebrating Virtue, Genius, Labour, Opinion, and Honours (the last being a day when the State can award people who have provided great service to humanity or the State itself)? Every Leap Year there is an extra day designated for the French Revolution. Any country that hasn't had one of those could substitute anything they liked to celebrate on that day. Five or six days off every year is a pretty good deal, and employers could be obligated to give all workers one Decade off in addition, some time during the year. This would give every worker 15 or 16 days off a year for vacation, which is more than the 14 people usually get now. In addition, each country has its own holidays, like the 4th of July. Such holidays could simply be translated each year to the FRC, and still be celebrated with a day off. (F), the FRC, with its month names and day names, is quite aesthetically pleasing, in a way that other calendars are not (I shall grant that this is a rather subjective concept, of course). (G), the calculation of years dating from the founding of the French Republic celebrates an event of worldwide importance. The creation of the French Republic moved the world closer to a rational, logical form of government. Of course, internally each country could designate their year after anything. In America, we could count from 1776, as long as we did not change the date of the New Year. But for international use, the calendar would celebrate the French Era.

So, there you are. Why I prefer the FRC over any calendar I have yet seen. I encourage everybody to have a look at this under-appreciated calendar, and consider this post as you do. I think some of you might end up agreeing with me.

Regards,
Jamison E. Painter, MA


--
"You must be the change you want to see in the world."

Mahatma Gandhi





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Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

Walter J Ziobro
In reply to this post by Jamison Painter

Dear Karl

As I have pointed out, distributing the complimentary days of the French Calendar would better approximate the seasonal lengths than the original French calendar did It wouldn't precisely align the months to the ecliptic longitudes as well as the Iranian or Indian calendars do. But for ordinary purposes the seasonal points would be better aligned

As it is the Iranian and Indian calendars would have to shift their month lengths to keep up with precision over the millennia The balanced Calendar could simply define the shortest season as the season with only 30-30-30 days, the longest season as the season with 1/2-30-30-30-1/2 days, and the average length seasons with 1-30-30-30 or 30-30-30-1 days This admittedly is not astronomically precise, but reasonably close for practical use, and wouldn't require shifting any dates for a very long period

Walter Ziobro




On Monday, April 8, 2019 K PALMEN <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Walter, Jamison and Calendar People

One problem with the Balanced French Republican Calendar is that the complementary days do not come on or very close to the equinox and solstice dates. If the first day of the year were to be a southward equinox day or a neighbouring day to that, the complementary day for the northward equinox would be too late.

The Indian national and Iranian calendar get round that problem by having 31-day months in the northern summer and shorter months in the rest of the year.

Karl

Monday Beta April 2019

----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 08/04/2019 - 03:37 (BST)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

WALTER:

I apologise for misspelling your name in the past email.

Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>WALTEE:
>
>The problem with doing that is people only get one day off at a time. Part of the purpose of having those days at the end of the year is to celebrate for five or six days straight. Just let your hair down and party, more or less (and if you knew me, you would know how amusing a statement that is, since I have probably NEVER "let my hair down and partied" at any point during my life).
>
>Jamison
>
>18 Germinal CCXXVII, Hemlock.
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Re: Indian National Calendar Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

Jamison Painter
In reply to this post by k.palmen@btinternet.com
KARL:

That would completely defeat the balanced nature of the FRC. The whole point of the FRC is its decimal system. Even the end of the year is half of ten except in Leap Years, and those only occur every four or five years, depending on when the Autumnal Equinox is determined to be from the Observatory in Paris. It also defeats the ease of accounting that the FRC presents; 12 months of 30 days divided into three Decades, for a total of 360 days. The quarters are exactly the same (90 days), the seasons begin on the exact same day every year, the harvest season is always at the same exact time each year, etc, etc. Throwing in the Blank Days at various points throughout the calendar throws all of this off dramatically. And that does not speak for the fundamental fact that the point of having five or six days off at the end of the year gives the whole country a chance to "chill out", and give itself over to patriotism for a time.

Jamison

19 Germinal CCXXVII, Radish.

K PALMEN <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Jamison and Calendar People

Some months would have to have a 'blank day' an extradecadal day.

Karl
----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 08/04/2019 - 11:24 (BST)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: Indian National Calendar Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

Indeed, that is rather different. And you cannot really add any of the Complementary Days to any month proper, as that eliminates the benefit of having all months begin on a Primidi and close on the third Decadi.

Jamison

19 Germinal CCXXVII, Radish

K PALMEN <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Jamison and Calendar People

The Indian National Calendar is a version of the Hindu calendar that is fixed relative to the Gregorian Calendar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_national_calendar 
In a leap year the first six months have 31 days and the remaining months have 30 days as in some Iranian calendars. This arrangement helps ensure that the months correspond to the signs of the tropical zodiac. It is therefore quite different for Walter's Balanced French Republican Calendar even if each of the complementary days were included in a neighbouring month.

Karl

Monday Bata April 2019
----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 07/04/2019 - 19:14 (BST)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)



On Saturday, April 6, 2019, Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Jamison

For a long time, I have been an admirer of the Indian National Civil Calendar, as I liked the way the month lengths were adjusted to the seasons. However, lately I am coming around to a point of view that a more useful arrangement of days is to equalize the quarters of the year by inserting complimentary days outside the months a seasonal points. Such an arrangement of days in a year could be 1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1/2. The French Calendar could be used in this way by distributing the complimentary days in this way

I don't know a great deal about the Indian Civil Calendar, so it is hard for me to comment on it. 

IMO, there are a number of advantages to this arrangement:

1) The quarters are of nearly equal length, such that in any given year the days of the 7 day week will fall on the same days of the months of every quarter

2) Given that the complimentary days are outside any particular month, they may be considered either the 1st day or last day of any quarter, as whichever way users prefer Thus both those who prefer 31-30-30 quarters, and those who prefer 30-30-31 quarters are both satisfied (sorry if you prefer 30-31-30 quarters; Altho such users could learn to think of starting quarters on a middle month)

3) By combining complimentary days with the months in different ways, the varying seasonal lengths can be approximated, Altho not as perfectly as the Indian Civil Calendar. For instance, the northern summer could be arranged with days: 1-30-30-30-2/3, being the longest month, northern autumn: 30-30-30-1, northern winter 30-30-30, being the shortest month, and northern spring 1-30-30-30.

4) A good leap day rule could keep the equinoxes and Solstices occurring on the same calendar date over a long period My preference would be for a 128 year cycle that distributed leap days in  33-33-33-29 year sub cycles This is nearly as accurate as the Iranian astronomical leap day rule

One of the proposals for determining Leap Years was to make every fourth year a Leap Year, UNLESS that year was ALSO divisible by 128. Is the the 128 year cycle that you mean? Another proposal was to simply follow the Gregorian rules, and of course, there was the method that was actually used, determining the date of the actual Autumnal Equinox as observed from the Observatory of Paris, and basing Leap Years on that. This is the method that I prefer, as it is the most accurate. That being said, however, it is also the most difficult. 

IMO the French Calendar could be well suited for this purpose if the five/six complimentary days were distributed to the seasonal points Then they could be truly universal celebrations of each season

It is true that dividing up to Complementary Days throughout the year would have the benefits you suggest. But the WEAKNESS of doing that is that it would eliminate the point of having 5 or six days off at the end of each year. 

It should also be noted that, since everyone has the last five or six days off at the end of the year, these Blank Days fall outside the working year. As a result, each quarter of the year in fact is already equal. On the FRC, each month has 30 days, and the working year is 360 days long. Each quarter of the working year is 90 days long, or exactly 3 FRC months. The five or six epegomenal (sp?) days simply don't count as part of the working year. It should ALSO be noted that each day of the Decade has a name, Primidi, Duodi, Tridi, Quartidi, etc. The five or six days at the end of the year are NOT given these designations, placing them even further outside the year proper. They are entirely days of celebration and rest, and not to be included in the Calendar Year Proper.

Walter Ziobro

Jamison E. Painter, MA

18 Germinal CCXXVII, Hemlock 

On Saturday, April 6, 2019 Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:
To: Calendar People.
From: Jamison E. Painter, MA
Re: Calendar Reform.
Date 17 Germinal CCXXVII, Larch

Ladies and Gentlemen, what is the purpose of a calendar? Why did mankind invent such a tool? Fundamentally, a calendar exists to keep track of time. The most important calendars exist for religious and agricultural reasons. There are two calendars that sit at the extreme end of either scale. The Islamic Calendar can ONLY be used as a religious calendar, because it is lunar, and does not keep track of the seasons.
The French Republican Calendar can only be used for agriculture, as it is completely solar, and has no religious use whatsoever.

There are calendars in between these two extremes. One is the Gregorian Calendar, which was derived from the Julian. The old Julian Calendar was both the religious calendar of the Roman State Religion, and an agricultural calendar. The Gregorian is likewise the religious calendar of the Christian Church and the agricultural calendar of the West. This is able to work because both the Pagan Religion of the Romans and the later Christian Religion use the Solar Calendar.

On the other hand, there is the Jewish Calendar, which is luni-solar, which means it depends on BOTH the Sun AND the Moon to stay accurate. Jewish Holidays are structured according to the lunar cycle, but agriculture in the Holy Land depends on the solar year. The Chinese Calendar is similar to this.

The most accurate calendar CURRENTLY IN USE is the Persian Calendar, used in Iran and Afghanistan. This calendar is based on observation, and requires 110,000 years to become inaccurate by a solar day. There is also a tabular form that has the same degree of accuracy. By way of comparison, the Gregorian Calendar loses a day every 3236 years. It should be noted that the New Year of the Persian Calendar falls on the Vernal (Spring) Equinox each year. Originally, and still officially, the calendar relies on observation by astronomers to determine when the Vernal Equinox occurs to start the New Year.

The question that arises is: Is there any calendar that exists that would be equally or more accurate than the Persian Calendar? In fact, there is. The French Republican Calendar begins on the Autumnal Equinox as determined by astronomers at the Observatory of Paris (as opposed to a certain point East of Tehran, Iran in the Persian Calendar). Although observational, which would make determining the New Year occasionally difficult, there have been mathematical proposals to deal with the problem, and I expect that one could use the same rules that apply to the tabular Persian Calendar with a Tabular FRC, and end up with a similar degree of accuracy.

So, why use the French Republican Calendar? (A), it is as accurate as the world's current most accurate calendar. (B), it has no religious influence, which prevents it from preferring and benefiting one religion over another. (C), It is based on Agriculture in the Ile-de-France region which essentially makes it a farmer's almanac for most of Europe and North America, as well as a large part of Asia. These areas of the world produce the VAST majority of the food we eat (at a wild guess I would suggest about 80%, although I may be wrong). (D), workers actually get MORE time off with the 1.5 days they get in a Decade, as opposed to the 1 day they get in a seven-day week. And a second day, Primidi ,could be added to Decadi and half of Quintidi for even more time off. (E), the FRC celebrates holidays that are of interest worldwide. Who would disagree with celebrating Virtue, Genius, Labour, Opinion, and Honours (the last being a day when the State can award people who have provided great service to humanity or the State itself)? Every Leap Year there is an extra day designated for the French Revolution. Any country that hasn't had one of those could substitute anything they liked to celebrate on that day. Five or six days off every year is a pretty good deal, and employers could be obligated to give all workers one Decade off in addition, some time during the year. This would give every worker 15 or 16 days off a year for vacation, which is more than the 14 people usually get now. In addition, each country has its own holidays, like the 4th of July. Such holidays could simply be translated each year to the FRC, and still be celebrated with a day off. (F), the FRC, with its month names and day names, is quite aesthetically pleasing, in a way that other calendars are not (I shall grant that this is a rather subjective concept, of course). (G), the calculation of years dating from the founding of the French Republic celebrates an event of worldwide importance. The creation of the French Republic moved the world closer to a rational, logical form of government. Of course, internally each country could designate their year after anything. In America, we could count from 1776, as long as we did not change the date of the New Year. But for international use, the calendar would celebrate the French Era.

So, there you are. Why I prefer the FRC over any calendar I have yet seen. I encourage everybody to have a look at this under-appreciated calendar, and consider this post as you do. I think some of you might end up agreeing with me.

Regards,
Jamison E. Painter, MA


--
"You must be the change you want to see in the world."

Mahatma Gandhi





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Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

Jamison Painter
In reply to this post by Jamison Painter
WALTER:

I am not sure how your method would better account for seasonal lengths than did the original French Republican Calendar. The calendar is dependent upon the Autumnal Equinox. According to Wikipedia, "By law, the beginning of each year was set at midnight, beginning on the day the apparent autumnal equinox falls at the Paris Observatory." And if Leap Years are calculated to keep in sync with this, I cannot see how the other seasons would not start on the first of each month of their beginning. By way of explanation, Autumn starts on 1 Vendemiaire, Winter on 1 Nivose, Spring on 1 Germinal and Summer on 1 Messidor. These dates are 22 September, 21 December, 21 March, and 19 June. It IS a little off from the Summer Solstice, but the other three are correct. With each Leap Year being determined by astronomical observation, I expect that most of the seasons would stay in sync. Of course, if any of the various tabular methods are used to determine Leap Year, then things might be a little off from year to year.

Jamison

19 Germinal CCXXVII, Radish

Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Walter, Jamison and Calendar People

One problem with the Balanced French Republican Calendar is that the complementary days do not come on or very close to the equinox and solstice dates. If the first day of the year were to be a southward equinox day or a neighbouring day to that, the complementary day for the northward equinox would be too late.

The Indian national and Iranian calendar get round that problem by having 31-day months in the northern summer and shorter months in the rest of the year.

Karl

Monday Beta April 2019

----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 08/04/2019 - 03:37 (BST)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

WALTER:

I apologise for misspelling your name in the past email.

Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>WALTEE:
>
>The problem with doing that is people only get one day off at a time. Part of the purpose of having those days at the end of the year is to celebrate for five or six days straight. Just let your hair down and party, more or less (and if you knew me, you would know how amusing a statement that is, since I have probably NEVER "let my hair down and partied" at any point during my life).
>
>Jamison
>
>18 Germinal CCXXVII, Hemlock.
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Re: Indian National Calendar Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

Walter J Ziobro
In reply to this post by k.palmen@btinternet.com

Dear Jamison et al

IMO there is no one calendar that is perfect for all purposes That's why I have created several of them that can be used simultaneously. IMO the great advantage of moving the complimentary days of the FRC to the seasonal points is that it allows different users of the same calendar several different choices as to how to organize the guarters

Different strokes for different folks

WalterZiobro




On Monday, April 8, 2019 Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:

KARL:

That would completely defeat the balanced nature of the FRC. The whole point of the FRC is its decimal system. Even the end of the year is half of ten except in Leap Years, and those only occur every four or five years, depending on when the Autumnal Equinox is determined to be from the Observatory in Paris. It also defeats the ease of accounting that the FRC presents; 12 months of 30 days divided into three Decades, for a total of 360 days. The quarters are exactly the same (90 days), the seasons begin on the exact same day every year, the harvest season is always at the same exact time each year, etc, etc. Throwing in the Blank Days at various points throughout the calendar throws all of this off dramatically. And that does not speak for the fundamental fact that the point of having five or six days off at the end of the year gives the whole country a chance to "chill out", and give itself over to patriotism for a time.

Jamison

19 Germinal CCXXVII, Radish.

K PALMEN <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Jamison and Calendar People

Some months would have to have a 'blank day' an extradecadal day.

Karl
----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 08/04/2019 - 11:24 (BST)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: Indian National Calendar Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

Indeed, that is rather different. And you cannot really add any of the Complementary Days to any month proper, as that eliminates the benefit of having all months begin on a Primidi and close on the third Decadi.

Jamison

19 Germinal CCXXVII, Radish

K PALMEN <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Jamison and Calendar People

The Indian National Calendar is a version of the Hindu calendar that is fixed relative to the Gregorian Calendar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_national_calendar 
In a leap year the first six months have 31 days and the remaining months have 30 days as in some Iranian calendars. This arrangement helps ensure that the months correspond to the signs of the tropical zodiac. It is therefore quite different for Walter's Balanced French Republican Calendar even if each of the complementary days were included in a neighbouring month.

Karl

Monday Bata April 2019
----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 07/04/2019 - 19:14 (BST)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)



On Saturday, April 6, 2019, Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Jamison

For a long time, I have been an admirer of the Indian National Civil Calendar, as I liked the way the month lengths were adjusted to the seasons. However, lately I am coming around to a point of view that a more useful arrangement of days is to equalize the quarters of the year by inserting complimentary days outside the months a seasonal points. Such an arrangement of days in a year could be 1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1-30-30- 30-1-30-30-30-1/2. The French Calendar could be used in this way by distributing the complimentary days in this way

I don't know a great deal about the Indian Civil Calendar, so it is hard for me to comment on it. 

IMO, there are a number of advantages to this arrangement:

1) The quarters are of nearly equal length, such that in any given year the days of the 7 day week will fall on the same days of the months of every quarter

2) Given that the complimentary days are outside any particular month, they may be considered either the 1st day or last day of any quarter, as whichever way users prefer Thus both those who prefer 31-30-30 quarters, and those who prefer 30-30-31 quarters are both satisfied (sorry if you prefer 30-31-30 quarters; Altho such users could learn to think of starting quarters on a middle month)

3) By combining complimentary days with the months in different ways, the varying seasonal lengths can be approximated, Altho not as perfectly as the Indian Civil Calendar. For instance, the northern summer could be arranged with days: 1-30-30-30-2/3, being the longest month, northern autumn: 30-30-30-1, northern winter 30-30-30, being the shortest month, and northern spring 1-30-30-30.

4) A good leap day rule could keep the equinoxes and Solstices occurring on the same calendar date over a long period My preference would be for a 128 year cycle that distributed leap days in  33-33-33-29 year sub cycles This is nearly as accurate as the Iranian astronomical leap day rule

One of the proposals for determining Leap Years was to make every fourth year a Leap Year, UNLESS that year was ALSO divisible by 128. Is the the 128 year cycle that you mean? Another proposal was to simply follow the Gregorian rules, and of course, there was the method that was actually used, determining the date of the actual Autumnal Equinox as observed from the Observatory of Paris, and basing Leap Years on that. This is the method that I prefer, as it is the most accurate. That being said, however, it is also the most difficult. 

IMO the French Calendar could be well suited for this purpose if the five/six complimentary days were distributed to the seasonal points Then they could be truly universal celebrations of each season

It is true that dividing up to Complementary Days throughout the year would have the benefits you suggest. But the WEAKNESS of doing that is that it would eliminate the point of having 5 or six days off at the end of each year. 

It should also be noted that, since everyone has the last five or six days off at the end of the year, these Blank Days fall outside the working year. As a result, each quarter of the year in fact is already equal. On the FRC, each month has 30 days, and the working year is 360 days long. Each quarter of the working year is 90 days long, or exactly 3 FRC months. The five or six epegomenal (sp?) days simply don't count as part of the working year. It should ALSO be noted that each day of the Decade has a name, Primidi, Duodi, Tridi, Quartidi, etc. The five or six days at the end of the year are NOT given these designations, placing them even further outside the year proper. They are entirely days of celebration and rest, and not to be included in the Calendar Year Proper.

Walter Ziobro

Jamison E. Painter, MA

18 Germinal CCXXVII, Hemlock 

On Saturday, April 6, 2019 Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:
To: Calendar People.
From: Jamison E. Painter, MA
Re: Calendar Reform.
Date 17 Germinal CCXXVII, Larch

Ladies and Gentlemen, what is the purpose of a calendar? Why did mankind invent such a tool? Fundamentally, a calendar exists to keep track of time. The most important calendars exist for religious and agricultural reasons. There are two calendars that sit at the extreme end of either scale. The Islamic Calendar can ONLY be used as a religious calendar, because it is lunar, and does not keep track of the seasons.
The French Republican Calendar can only be used for agriculture, as it is completely solar, and has no religious use whatsoever.

There are calendars in between these two extremes. One is the Gregorian Calendar, which was derived from the Julian. The old Julian Calendar was both the religious calendar of the Roman State Religion, and an agricultural calendar. The Gregorian is likewise the religious calendar of the Christian Church and the agricultural calendar of the West. This is able to work because both the Pagan Religion of the Romans and the later Christian Religion use the Solar Calendar.

On the other hand, there is the Jewish Calendar, which is luni-solar, which means it depends on BOTH the Sun AND the Moon to stay accurate. Jewish Holidays are structured according to the lunar cycle, but agriculture in the Holy Land depends on the solar year. The Chinese Calendar is similar to this.

The most accurate calendar CURRENTLY IN USE is the Persian Calendar, used in Iran and Afghanistan. This calendar is based on observation, and requires 110,000 years to become inaccurate by a solar day. There is also a tabular form that has the same degree of accuracy. By way of comparison, the Gregorian Calendar loses a day every 3236 years. It should be noted that the New Year of the Persian Calendar falls on the Vernal (Spring) Equinox each year. Originally, and still officially, the calendar relies on observation by astronomers to determine when the Vernal Equinox occurs to start the New Year.

The question that arises is: Is there any calendar that exists that would be equally or more accurate than the Persian Calendar? In fact, there is. The French Republican Calendar begins on the Autumnal Equinox as determined by astronomers at the Observatory of Paris (as opposed to a certain point East of Tehran, Iran in the Persian Calendar). Although observational, which would make determining the New Year occasionally difficult, there have been mathematical proposals to deal with the problem, and I expect that one could use the same rules that apply to the tabular Persian Calendar with a Tabular FRC, and end up with a similar degree of accuracy.

So, why use the French Republican Calendar? (A), it is as accurate as the world's current most accurate calendar. (B), it has no religious influence, which prevents it from preferring and benefiting one religion over another. (C), It is based on Agriculture in the Ile-de-France region which essentially makes it a farmer's almanac for most of Europe and North America, as well as a large part of Asia. These areas of the world produce the VAST majority of the food we eat (at a wild guess I would suggest about 80%, although I may be wrong). (D), workers actually get MORE time off with the 1.5 days they get in a Decade, as opposed to the 1 day they get in a seven-day week. And a second day, Primidi ,could be added to Decadi and half of Quintidi for even more time off. (E), the FRC celebrates holidays that are of interest worldwide. Who would disagree with celebrating Virtue, Genius, Labour, Opinion, and Honours (the last being a day when the State can award people who have provided great service to humanity or the State itself)? Every Leap Year there is an extra day designated for the French Revolution. Any country that hasn't had one of those could substitute anything they liked to celebrate on that day. Five or six days off every year is a pretty good deal, and employers could be obligated to give all workers one Decade off in addition, some time during the year. This would give every worker 15 or 16 days off a year for vacation, which is more than the 14 people usually get now. In addition, each country has its own holidays, like the 4th of July. Such holidays could simply be translated each year to the FRC, and still be celebrated with a day off. (F), the FRC, with its month names and day names, is quite aesthetically pleasing, in a way that other calendars are not (I shall grant that this is a rather subjective concept, of course). (G), the calculation of years dating from the founding of the French Republic celebrates an event of worldwide importance. The creation of the French Republic moved the world closer to a rational, logical form of government. Of course, internally each country could designate their year after anything. In America, we could count from 1776, as long as we did not change the date of the New Year. But for international use, the calendar would celebrate the French Era.

So, there you are. Why I prefer the FRC over any calendar I have yet seen. I encourage everybody to have a look at this under-appreciated calendar, and consider this post as you do. I think some of you might end up agreeing with me.

Regards,
Jamison E. Painter, MA


--
"You must be the change you want to see in the world."

Mahatma Gandhi





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Re: Indian National Calendar Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

Jamison Painter
In reply to this post by k.palmen@btinternet.com
WALTER:

Thank you for your response. It is certainly true that no calendar is perfect. Even the Persian and the FRC lose a day every 110,000 days (which, at least in my mind, is such an extremely low rate of error that one can declare these calendars to be perfect for all intents and purposes). I also understand why a person might want to use more than one calendar at a time. I myself use the GC for religious purposes as well as for relating to the rest of the world, but I ALSO use the FRC for personal scheduling.

This being said, I DO think that the world as a whole should have one calendar for use everywhere, in addition to the calendars that nations, religious groups, other groups, and individuals use. The reasons I prefer the FRC is (1), its accuracy. (2), Its secularism; it doesn't cater to any one or two privileged religions. (3), Its usefulness to farmers in the Northern Hemisphere where most of the world's food is produced. It serves as a virtual almanac to tell farmers when a particular plant will be in season. (4), its inherent beauty, although I agree, this is subjective.

I am also in favour of going to a ten hour day, again, how the French arranged the clock alongside the calendar. It really was a brilliant way to tell time, and it really is too bad that the FRC and the 10-hour day were not accepted in the way that the Metric System was. Yes, it would have taken some time to adapt our brains, but the same is true of Metric, and I adapted just fine when I lived in Costa Rica.

Regards,
Jamison

20 Germinal CCXXVII, Bee Hive.

Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Jamison et al

IMO there is no one calendar that is perfect for all purposes That's why I have created several of them that can be used simultaneously. IMO the great advantage of moving the complimentary days of the FRC to the seasonal points is that it allows different users of the same calendar several different choices as to how to organize the guarters

Different strokes for different folks

WalterZiobro




On Monday, April 8, 2019 Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:

KARL:

That would completely defeat the balanced nature of the FRC. The whole point of the FRC is its decimal system. Even the end of the year is half of ten except in Leap Years, and those only occur every four or five years, depending on when the Autumnal Equinox is determined to be from the Observatory in Paris. It also defeats the ease of accounting that the FRC presents; 12 months of 30 days divided into three Decades, for a total of 360 days. The quarters are exactly the same (90 days), the seasons begin on the exact same day every year, the harvest season is always at the same exact time each year, etc, etc. Throwing in the Blank Days at various points throughout the calendar throws all of this off dramatically. And that does not speak for the fundamental fact that the point of having five or six days off at the end of the year gives the whole country a chance to "chill out", and give itself over to patriotism for a time.

Jamison

19 Germinal CCXXVII, Radish.

K PALMEN <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Jamison and Calendar People

Some months would have to have a 'blank day' an extradecadal day.

Karl
----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 08/04/2019 - 11:24 (BST)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: Indian National Calendar Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)

Indeed, that is rather different. And you cannot really add any of the Complementary Days to any month proper, as that eliminates the benefit of having all months begin on a Primidi and close on the third Decadi.

Jamison

19 Germinal CCXXVII, Radish

K PALMEN <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Jamison and Calendar People

The Indian National Calendar is a version of the Hindu calendar that is fixed relative to the Gregorian Calendar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_national_calendar 
In a leap year the first six months have 31 days and the remaining months have 30 days as in some Iranian calendars. This arrangement helps ensure that the months correspond to the signs of the tropical zodiac. It is therefore quite different for Walter's Balanced French Republican Calendar even if each of the complementary days were included in a neighbouring month.

Karl

Monday Bata April 2019
----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 07/04/2019 - 19:14 (BST)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: The Merits of the French Republican Calendar (FRC)



On Saturday, April 6, 2019, Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Jamison

For a long time, I have been an admirer of the Indian National Civil Calendar, as I liked the way the month lengths were adjusted to the seasons. However, lately I am coming around to a point of view that a more useful arrangement of days is to equalize the quarters of the year by inserting complimentary days outside the months a seasonal points. Such an arrangement of days in a year could be 1-30-30-30-1-30-30-30-1-30-30- 30-1-30-30-30-1/2. The French Calendar could be used in this way by distributing the complimentary days in this way

I don't know a great deal about the Indian Civil Calendar, so it is hard for me to comment on it. 

IMO, there are a number of advantages to this arrangement:

1) The quarters are of nearly equal length, such that in any given year the days of the 7 day week will fall on the same days of the months of every quarter

2) Given that the complimentary days are outside any particular month, they may be considered either the 1st day or last day of any quarter, as whichever way users prefer Thus both those who prefer 31-30-30 quarters, and those who prefer 30-30-31 quarters are both satisfied (sorry if you prefer 30-31-30 quarters; Altho such users could learn to think of starting quarters on a middle month)

3) By combining complimentary days with the months in different ways, the varying seasonal lengths can be approximated, Altho not as perfectly as the Indian Civil Calendar. For instance, the northern summer could be arranged with days: 1-30-30-30-2/3, being the longest month, northern autumn: 30-30-30-1, northern winter 30-30-30, being the shortest month, and northern spring 1-30-30-30.

4) A good leap day rule could keep the equinoxes and Solstices occurring on the same calendar date over a long period My preference would be for a 128 year cycle that distributed leap days in  33-33-33-29 year sub cycles This is nearly as accurate as the Iranian astronomical leap day rule

One of the proposals for determining Leap Years was to make every fourth year a Leap Year, UNLESS that year was ALSO divisible by 128. Is the the 128 year cycle that you mean? Another proposal was to simply follow the Gregorian rules, and of course, there was the method that was actually used, determining the date of the actual Autumnal Equinox as observed from the Observatory of Paris, and basing Leap Years on that. This is the method that I prefer, as it is the most accurate. That being said, however, it is also the most difficult. 

IMO the French Calendar could be well suited for this purpose if the five/six complimentary days were distributed to the seasonal points Then they could be truly universal celebrations of each season

It is true that dividing up to Complementary Days throughout the year would have the benefits you suggest. But the WEAKNESS of doing that is that it would eliminate the point of having 5 or six days off at the end of each year. 

It should also be noted that, since everyone has the last five or six days off at the end of the year, these Blank Days fall outside the working year. As a result, each quarter of the year in fact is already equal. On the FRC, each month has 30 days, and the working year is 360 days long. Each quarter of the working year is 90 days long, or exactly 3 FRC months. The five or six epegomenal (sp?) days simply don't count as part of the working year. It should ALSO be noted that each day of the Decade has a name, Primidi, Duodi, Tridi, Quartidi, etc. The five or six days at the end of the year are NOT given these designations, placing them even further outside the year proper. They are entirely days of celebration and rest, and not to be included in the Calendar Year Proper.

Walter Ziobro

Jamison E. Painter, MA

18 Germinal CCXXVII, Hemlock 

On Saturday, April 6, 2019 Jamison Painter <[hidden email]> wrote:
To: Calendar People.
From: Jamison E. Painter, MA
Re: Calendar Reform.
Date 17 Germinal CCXXVII, Larch

Ladies and Gentlemen, what is the purpose of a calendar? Why did mankind invent such a tool? Fundamentally, a calendar exists to keep track of time. The most important calendars exist for religious and agricultural reasons. There are two calendars that sit at the extreme end of either scale. The Islamic Calendar can ONLY be used as a religious calendar, because it is lunar, and does not keep track of the seasons.
The French Republican Calendar can only be used for agriculture, as it is completely solar, and has no religious use whatsoever.

There are calendars in between these two extremes. One is the Gregorian Calendar, which was derived from the Julian. The old Julian Calendar was both the religious calendar of the Roman State Religion, and an agricultural calendar. The Gregorian is likewise the religious calendar of the Christian Church and the agricultural calendar of the West. This is able to work because both the Pagan Religion of the Romans and the later Christian Religion use the Solar Calendar.

On the other hand, there is the Jewish Calendar, which is luni-solar, which means it depends on BOTH the Sun AND the Moon to stay accurate. Jewish Holidays are structured according to the lunar cycle, but agriculture in the Holy Land depends on the solar year. The Chinese Calendar is similar to this.

The most accurate calendar CURRENTLY IN USE is the Persian Calendar, used in Iran and Afghanistan. This calendar is based on observation, and requires 110,000 years to become inaccurate by a solar day. There is also a tabular form that has the same degree of accuracy. By way of comparison, the Gregorian Calendar loses a day every 3236 years. It should be noted that the New Year of the Persian Calendar falls on the Vernal (Spring) Equinox each year. Originally, and still officially, the calendar relies on observation by astronomers to determine when the Vernal Equinox occurs to start the New Year.

The question that arises is: Is there any calendar that exists that would be equally or more accurate than the Persian Calendar? In fact, there is. The French Republican Calendar begins on the Autumnal Equinox as determined by astronomers at the Observatory of Paris (as opposed to a certain point East of Tehran, Iran in the Persian Calendar). Although observational, which would make determining the New Year occasionally difficult, there have been mathematical proposals to deal with the problem, and I expect that one could use the same rules that apply to the tabular Persian Calendar with a Tabular FRC, and end up with a similar degree of accuracy.

So, why use the French Republican Calendar? (A), it is as accurate as the world's current most accurate calendar. (B), it has no religious influence, which prevents it from preferring and benefiting one religion over another. (C), It is based on Agriculture in the Ile-de-France region which essentially makes it a farmer's almanac for most of Europe and North America, as well as a large part of Asia. These areas of the world produce the VAST majority of the food we eat (at a wild guess I would suggest about 80%, although I may be wrong). (D), workers actually get MORE time off with the 1.5 days they get in a Decade, as opposed to the 1 day they get in a seven-day week. And a second day, Primidi ,could be added to Decadi and half of Quintidi for even more time off. (E), the FRC celebrates holidays that are of interest worldwide. Who would disagree with celebrating Virtue, Genius, Labour, Opinion, and Honours (the last being a day when the State can award people who have provided great service to humanity or the State itself)? Every Leap Year there is an extra day designated for the French Revolution. Any country that hasn't had one of those could substitute anything they liked to celebrate on that day. Five or six days off every year is a pretty good deal, and employers could be obligated to give all workers one Decade off in addition, some time during the year. This would give every worker 15 or 16 days off a year for vacation, which is more than the 14 people usually get now. In addition, each country has its own holidays, like the 4th of July. Such holidays could simply be translated each year to the FRC, and still be celebrated with a day off. (F), the FRC, with its month names and day names, is quite aesthetically pleasing, in a way that other calendars are not (I shall grant that this is a rather subjective concept, of course). (G), the calculation of years dating from the founding of the French Republic celebrates an event of worldwide importance. The creation of the French Republic moved the world closer to a rational, logical form of government. Of course, internally each country could designate their year after anything. In America, we could count from 1776, as long as we did not change the date of the New Year. But for international use, the calendar would celebrate the French Era.

So, there you are. Why I prefer the FRC over any calendar I have yet seen. I encourage everybody to have a look at this under-appreciated calendar, and consider this post as you do. I think some of you might end up agreeing with me.

Regards,
Jamison E. Painter, MA


--
"You must be the change you want to see in the world."

Mahatma Gandhi





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