The Hebrew calendar

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The Hebrew calendar

Aristeo Fernando-3
Dear Calendar People,

The Romans under Emperor Constantine fixed Easter (Christian Passover) in 325 AD in the Council of Nicaea because the Romans were dependent to the Jews regarding Passover.

The Jews followed suit 33 years later, in 358 AD, under Hillel II, when they reformed their calendars to what it is today.  There has never been a reformation since 358 AD.  When the Jews are expecting a full moon on the 14th or 15th of the month, there is no full moon today.  Why?  

Regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."
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Re: The Hebrew calendar

Amos Shapir-2
Hi Aristeo and calendar people,

The last full moon occurred on Sunday, December 3; it was the 15th day of Kislev in the Jewish calendar.

There's no full moon today because it's the 18th day of Kislev.

Virus-free. www.avg.com

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 2:25 AM, Aristeo Fernando <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Calendar People,

The Romans under Emperor Constantine fixed Easter (Christian Passover) in 325 AD in the Council of Nicaea because the Romans were dependent to the Jews regarding Passover.

The Jews followed suit 33 years later, in 358 AD, under Hillel II, when they reformed their calendars to what it is today.  There has never been a reformation since 358 AD.  When the Jews are expecting a full moon on the 14th or 15th of the month, there is no full moon today.  Why?  

Regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."



--
Amos Shapir
 
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Re: The Hebrew calendar

Aristeo Fernando-3
Dear Calendar People,

I have read somewhere that since Hebrew calendar was reformed in 358 AD, the supposed full moon on the 14th or 15th day of the month was not being met.  Another hocus-focus by the Jews?  It is now 6 or 7 days off.  Could you have this checked?

Regards,  
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."



From: Amos Shapir <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: The Hebrew calendar

Hi Aristeo and calendar people,

The last full moon occurred on Sunday, December 3; it was the 15th day of Kislev in the Jewish calendar.

There's no full moon today because it's the 18th day of Kislev.

Virus-free. www.avg.com

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 2:25 AM, Aristeo Fernando <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Calendar People,

The Romans under Emperor Constantine fixed Easter (Christian Passover) in 325 AD in the Council of Nicaea because the Romans were dependent to the Jews regarding Passover.

The Jews followed suit 33 years later, in 358 AD, under Hillel II, when they reformed their calendars to what it is today.  There has never been a reformation since 358 AD.  When the Jews are expecting a full moon on the 14th or 15th of the month, there is no full moon today.  Why?  

Regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader. wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."



--
Amos Shapir
 


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Re: The Hebrew calendar

Walter J Ziobro
In reply to this post by Amos Shapir-2

Indeed The lunar part of the Jewish calendar is quite accurate. It's the solar part that's drifting later, like the Julian Calendar

Walter Ziobro

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail




On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 Amos Shapir <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Aristeo and calendar people,

The last full moon occurred on Sunday, December 3; it was the 15th day of Kislev in the Jewish calendar.

There's no full moon today because it's the 18th day of Kislev.

Virus-free. www.avg.com

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 2:25 AM, Aristeo Fernando <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Calendar People,

The Romans under Emperor Constantine fixed Easter (Christian Passover) in 325 AD in the Council of Nicaea because the Romans were dependent to the Jews regarding Passover.

The Jews followed suit 33 years later, in 358 AD, under Hillel II, when they reformed their calendars to what it is today.  There has never been a reformation since 358 AD.  When the Jews are expecting a full moon on the 14th or 15th of the month, there is no full moon today.  Why?  

Regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."



--
Amos Shapir
 
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Re: The Hebrew calendar

Amos Shapir-2
In reply to this post by Aristeo Fernando-3
Hi Aristeo and calendar people,

I don't see what the "hocus focus" is supposed to be -- yesterday was not a full moon day, and was not the 14th or 15th of the Jewish month.
There was no major reform in 358; all that happened is that Hillel made the calendar algorithm public, which, he claimed has ben transferred to him "from my forefathers".
Commonly this is attributed to Raban Gamliel who lived at the end of the 1st century AD.

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 3:43 PM, Aristeo Fernando <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Calendar People,

I have read somewhere that since Hebrew calendar was reformed in 358 AD, the supposed full moon on the 14th or 15th day of the month was not being met.  Another hocus-focus by the Jews?  It is now 6 or 7 days off.  Could you have this checked?

Regards,  
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."



From: Amos Shapir <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: The Hebrew calendar

Hi Aristeo and calendar people,

The last full moon occurred on Sunday, December 3; it was the 15th day of Kislev in the Jewish calendar.

There's no full moon today because it's the 18th day of Kislev.

Virus-free. www.avg.com

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 2:25 AM, Aristeo Fernando <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Calendar People,

The Romans under Emperor Constantine fixed Easter (Christian Passover) in 325 AD in the Council of Nicaea because the Romans were dependent to the Jews regarding Passover.

The Jews followed suit 33 years later, in 358 AD, under Hillel II, when they reformed their calendars to what it is today.  There has never been a reformation since 358 AD.  When the Jews are expecting a full moon on the 14th or 15th of the month, there is no full moon today.  Why?  

Regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader. wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."



--
Amos Shapir
 





--
Amos Shapir
 
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Re: The Hebrew calendar

Ariel Cohen
Hi Ariesto and calendar people
Remember that there are several Jews and non-Jews in the group that would not accept
your (Ariesto's) phrase "Another hocus-focus by the Jews?"
As far as I am concerned it sounds like you, Ariesto, miss some fundamental knowledge and manners as well.  

Prof. Ariel Cohen, Ph.D.

The Hebrew University of Jerusalem
M: 054-529-7944  F: 15326423886 

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:59 PM, Amos Shapir <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Aristeo and calendar people,

I don't see what the "hocus focus" is supposed to be -- yesterday was not a full moon day, and was not the 14th or 15th of the Jewish month.
There was no major reform in 358; all that happened is that Hillel made the calendar algorithm public, which, he claimed has ben transferred to him "from my forefathers".
Commonly this is attributed to Raban Gamliel who lived at the end of the 1st century AD.

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 3:43 PM, Aristeo Fernando <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Calendar People,

I have read somewhere that since Hebrew calendar was reformed in 358 AD, the supposed full moon on the 14th or 15th day of the month was not being met.  Another hocus-focus by the Jews?  It is now 6 or 7 days off.  Could you have this checked?

Regards,  
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."



From: Amos Shapir <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: The Hebrew calendar

Hi Aristeo and calendar people,

The last full moon occurred on Sunday, December 3; it was the 15th day of Kislev in the Jewish calendar.

There's no full moon today because it's the 18th day of Kislev.

Virus-free. www.avg.com

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 2:25 AM, Aristeo Fernando <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Calendar People,

The Romans under Emperor Constantine fixed Easter (Christian Passover) in 325 AD in the Council of Nicaea because the Romans were dependent to the Jews regarding Passover.

The Jews followed suit 33 years later, in 358 AD, under Hillel II, when they reformed their calendars to what it is today.  There has never been a reformation since 358 AD.  When the Jews are expecting a full moon on the 14th or 15th of the month, there is no full moon today.  Why?  

Regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader. wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."



--
Amos Shapir
 





--
Amos Shapir
 

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Re: The Hebrew calendar

Irv Bromberg
In reply to this post by Walter J Ziobro
Nope, the lunar part isn't particularly accurate, see:

http://www.sym454.org/hebrew/molad.htm

"like the Julian Calendar" is an exaggeration -- the Julian calendar's drift is almost twice as fast as the Hebrew calendar's drift, compared to the mean northward equinox, see:

http://www.sym454.org/hebrew/drift.htm

My "Rectified Hebrew Calendar" proposal would optimize both of the above to essentially the best that is possible with a fixed arithmetic lunisolar calendar, see:

http://www.sym454.org/hebrew/rect.htm

But anyhow, the Hebrew calendar was never concerned about the full moon landing on any particular date(s). This isn't of any Jewish ritual significance. The multi-day festivals of Sukkot and Passover occur around the time of the full moon, but that merely enabled outdoor celebrations beyond sunset, with Moon providing the illumination.

--- Irv Bromberg, University of Toronto, Canada


From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] on behalf of Walter J Ziobro [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 09:37
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: The Hebrew calendar

Indeed The lunar part of the Jewish calendar is quite accurate. It's the solar part that's drifting later, like the Julian Calendar

Walter Ziobro

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail




On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 Amos Shapir <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Aristeo and calendar people,

The last full moon occurred on Sunday, December 3; it was the 15th day of Kislev in the Jewish calendar.

There's no full moon today because it's the 18th day of Kislev.

Virus-free. www.avg.com

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 2:25 AM, Aristeo Fernando <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Calendar People,

The Romans under Emperor Constantine fixed Easter (Christian Passover) in 325 AD in the Council of Nicaea because the Romans were dependent to the Jews regarding Passover.

The Jews followed suit 33 years later, in 358 AD, under Hillel II, when they reformed their calendars to what it is today.  There has never been a reformation since 358 AD.  When the Jews are expecting a full moon on the 14th or 15th of the month, there is no full moon today.  Why?  

Regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."



--
Amos Shapir
 
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Re: The Hebrew calendar

Aristeo Fernando-3
In reply to this post by Ariel Cohen
Dear Ariel and Calendar People,

Yes, I say "hocus-focus".  Why did the Jews not announce their changing of the calendars?  Why are they mum what they did to their calendars?

Why did they have to hide where Jesus Christ was crucified?  Is it at the Holy Sepulcher Church?  Is it at the Protestant site identified by Gordon in about 1800?  Why is it that they met Simon of Cyrene (?) in the morning when they crucified Jesus?

Regards, 
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."



From: Ariel Cohen <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, December 7, 2017 2:48 AM
Subject: Re: The Hebrew calendar

Hi Ariesto and calendar people
Remember that there are several Jews and non-Jews in the group that would not accept
your (Ariesto's) phrase "Another hocus-focus by the Jews?"
As far as I am concerned it sounds like you, Ariesto, miss some fundamental knowledge and manners as well.  

Prof. Ariel Cohen, Ph.D.

The Hebrew University of Jerusalem
M: 054-529-7944  F: 15326423886 

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:59 PM, Amos Shapir <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Aristeo and calendar people,

I don't see what the "hocus focus" is supposed to be -- yesterday was not a full moon day, and was not the 14th or 15th of the Jewish month.
There was no major reform in 358; all that happened is that Hillel made the calendar algorithm public, which, he claimed has ben transferred to him "from my forefathers".
Commonly this is attributed to Raban Gamliel who lived at the end of the 1st century AD.

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 3:43 PM, Aristeo Fernando <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Calendar People,

I have read somewhere that since Hebrew calendar was reformed in 358 AD, the supposed full moon on the 14th or 15th day of the month was not being met.  Another hocus-focus by the Jews?  It is now 6 or 7 days off.  Could you have this checked?

Regards,  
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress .com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."



From: Amos Shapir <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: The Hebrew calendar

Hi Aristeo and calendar people,

The last full moon occurred on Sunday, December 3; it was the 15th day of Kislev in the Jewish calendar.

There's no full moon today because it's the 18th day of Kislev.

Virus-free. www.avg.com

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 2:25 AM, Aristeo Fernando <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Calendar People,

The Romans under Emperor Constantine fixed Easter (Christian Passover) in 325 AD in the Council of Nicaea because the Romans were dependent to the Jews regarding Passover.

The Jews followed suit 33 years later, in 358 AD, under Hillel II, when they reformed their calendars to what it is today.  There has never been a reformation since 358 AD.  When the Jews are expecting a full moon on the 14th or 15th of the month, there is no full moon today.  Why?  

Regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader. wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."



--
Amos Shapir
 





--
Amos Shapir
 



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Re: The Hebrew calendar

Karl Palmen
In reply to this post by Irv Bromberg

Dear Aristeo, Amos, Irv and Calendar People

 

The solar drift of the Hebrew Calendar is about 1 day in 195 to 245 years depending on when the tropical year begins. This is about 1/1000 year in 70 to 90 years.

The lunar drift is about 1 hour in about 560 years. This is  1/1000 lunar month in about 350 years.

 

I think Aristeo may have confused the solar drift, which would have accumulated to a few days with the lunar drift, which has accumulated to very few hours.

 

The effect of the solar drift is to delay the average start of each year by a few days. It does so by making some years start one month late while other years start around the same day.

 

Karl

 

16(16(19

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Irv Bromberg
Sent: 06 December 2017 19:02
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: The Hebrew calendar

 

Nope, the lunar part isn't particularly accurate, see:

http://www.sym454.org/hebrew/molad.htm

"like the Julian Calendar" is an exaggeration -- the Julian calendar's drift is almost twice as fast as the Hebrew calendar's drift, compared to the mean northward equinox, see:

http://www.sym454.org/hebrew/drift.htm

My "Rectified Hebrew Calendar" proposal would optimize both of the above to essentially the best that is possible with a fixed arithmetic lunisolar calendar, see:

http://www.sym454.org/hebrew/rect.htm

But anyhow, the Hebrew calendar was never concerned about the full moon landing on any particular date(s). This isn't of any Jewish ritual significance. The multi-day festivals of Sukkot and Passover occur around the time of the full moon, but that merely enabled outdoor celebrations beyond sunset, with Moon providing the illumination.

--- Irv Bromberg, University of Toronto, Canada


From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] on behalf of Walter J Ziobro [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 09:37
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: The Hebrew calendar

Indeed The lunar part of the Jewish calendar is quite accurate. It's the solar part that's drifting later, like the Julian Calendar

Walter Ziobro

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

 


On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 Amos Shapir <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Aristeo and calendar people,

The last full moon occurred on Sunday, December 3; it was the 15th day of Kislev in the Jewish calendar.

There's no full moon today because it's the 18th day of Kislev.

 

Virus-free. www.avg.com

 

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 2:25 AM, Aristeo Fernando <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Calendar People,

 

The Romans under Emperor Constantine fixed Easter (Christian Passover) in 325 AD in the Council of Nicaea because the Romans were dependent to the Jews regarding Passover.

 

The Jews followed suit 33 years later, in 358 AD, under Hillel II, when they reformed their calendars to what it is today.  There has never been a reformation since 358 AD.  When the Jews are expecting a full moon on the 14th or 15th of the month, there is no full moon today.  Why?  

 

Regards,

Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."




--

Amos Shapir

 

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Re: The Hebrew calendar

Irv Bromberg
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] on behalf of Karl Palmen [[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2017 08:06

The solar drift of the Hebrew Calendar is about 1 day in 195 to 245 years depending on when the tropical year begins. This is about 1/1000 year in 70 to 90 years.

The lunar drift is about 1 hour in about 560 years. This is  1/1000 lunar month in about 350 years.


[Bromberg] Neither rate is constant. The lunar drift is accelerating approximately quadratically as the excess between the traditional (constant) molad interval and the actual mean synodic month continues to grow. The (mean) "tropical year" should be irrelevant to any calendar because it doesn't relate to any equinox or solstice and is in the wrong time units -- calendars need mean solar time, whereas the MTY is in terms of atomic time. In the case of the Hebrew calendar, the mean northward equinoctial year, measured in mean solar time, seems to be the appropriate solar reference year.

 

I think Aristeo may have confused the solar drift, which would have accumulated to a few days with the lunar drift, which has accumulated to very few hours.


[Bromberg] Although the lunar drift has to date accumulated to just slightly more than 2 hours (assuming, incorrectly, that Jerusalem is the intended reference meridian), that isn't a small drift. The molad calculation determines the provisional date of Rosh HaShanah, subject to the subsequent application of the Rosh HaShanah postponement rules. As it is about 2 hours late that means that the molad moment is on average about 2/24 day late, which means that on average the provisional date of Rosh HaShanah is currently a day late in about 1 in 12 years. The effect on the Hebrew calendar is complex to work out because of interactions with the postponement rules and leap years. Since Rosh HaShanah is postponed at least one day more often than not, the effect of the molad being a day late may or may not affect the dating. It could be evaluated by comparing the traditional Hebrew calendar with traditional molad against the traditional Hebrew calendar with my Progressive Molad.

 

The effect of the solar drift is to delay the average start of each year by a few days. It does so by making some years start one month late while other years start around the same day.

 

[Bromberg] Correct, provided that you are referring to the first-numbered month of the year, which is Nisan. Currently about 4 years in 19 run one month late for 12 months from Nisan (following a "premature" leap month) until the leap month "should have been inserted" the following spring.



Karl

 

16(16(19

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Irv Bromberg
Sent: 06 December 2017 19:02
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: The Hebrew calendar

 

Nope, the lunar part isn't particularly accurate, see:

http://www.sym454.org/hebrew/molad.htm

"like the Julian Calendar" is an exaggeration -- the Julian calendar's drift is almost twice as fast as the Hebrew calendar's drift, compared to the mean northward equinox, see:

http://www.sym454.org/hebrew/drift.htm

My "Rectified Hebrew Calendar" proposal would optimize both of the above to essentially the best that is possible with a fixed arithmetic lunisolar calendar, see:

http://www.sym454.org/hebrew/rect.htm

But anyhow, the Hebrew calendar was never concerned about the full moon landing on any particular date(s). This isn't of any Jewish ritual significance. The multi-day festivals of Sukkot and Passover occur around the time of the full moon, but that merely enabled outdoor celebrations beyond sunset, with Moon providing the illumination.

--- Irv Bromberg, University of Toronto, Canada


From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] on behalf of Walter J Ziobro [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 09:37
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: The Hebrew calendar

Indeed The lunar part of the Jewish calendar is quite accurate. It's the solar part that's drifting later, like the Julian Calendar

Walter Ziobro

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

 


On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 Amos Shapir <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Aristeo and calendar people,

The last full moon occurred on Sunday, December 3; it was the 15th day of Kislev in the Jewish calendar.

There's no full moon today because it's the 18th day of Kislev.

 

Virus-free. www.avg.com

 

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 2:25 AM, Aristeo Fernando <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Calendar People,

 

The Romans under Emperor Constantine fixed Easter (Christian Passover) in 325 AD in the Council of Nicaea because the Romans were dependent to the Jews regarding Passover.

 

The Jews followed suit 33 years later, in 358 AD, under Hillel II, when they reformed their calendars to what it is today.  There has never been a reformation since 358 AD.  When the Jews are expecting a full moon on the 14th or 15th of the month, there is no full moon today.  Why?  

 

Regards,

Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."




--

Amos Shapir

 

Reply | Threaded
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Re: The Hebrew calendar

Karl Palmen

Dear Irv and Calendar People

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Irv Bromberg
Sent: 07 December 2017 14:29
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: The Hebrew calendar

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] on behalf of Karl Palmen [[hidden email]]

Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2017 08:06

The solar drift of the Hebrew Calendar is about 1 day in 195 to 245 years depending on when the tropical year begins. This is about 1/1000 year in 70 to 90 years.

The lunar drift is about 1 hour in about 560 years. This is  1/1000 lunar month in about 350 years.

 

[Bromberg] Neither rate is constant. The lunar drift is accelerating approximately quadratically as the excess between the traditional (constant) molad interval and the actual mean synodic month continues to grow. The (mean) "tropical year" should be irrelevant to any calendar because it doesn't relate to any equinox or solstice and is in the wrong time units -- calendars need mean solar time, whereas the MTY is in terms of atomic time. In the case of the Hebrew calendar, the mean northward equinoctial year, measured in mean solar time, seems to be the appropriate solar reference year.

 

KARL REPLIES: The values I give are intended to apply no more than millennium or two from the present time and show that the lunar accuracy is considerably (4 or 5 times) greater than solar accuracy even when compared relative the period (month or year respectively) rather than day.  I do not expect this situation to last much longer.

 

 

I think Aristeo may have confused the solar drift, which would have accumulated to a few days with the lunar drift, which has accumulated to very few hours.

 

[Bromberg] Although the lunar drift has to date accumulated to just slightly more than 2 hours (assuming, incorrectly, that Jerusalem is the intended reference meridian), that isn't a small drift. The molad calculation determines the provisional date of Rosh HaShanah, subject to the subsequent application of the Rosh HaShanah postponement rules. As it is about 2 hours late that means that the molad moment is on average about 2/24 day late, which means that on average the provisional date of Rosh HaShanah is currently a day late in about 1 in 12 years. The effect on the Hebrew calendar is complex to work out because of interactions with the postponement rules and leap years. Since Rosh HaShanah is postponed at least one day more often than not, the effect of the molad being a day late may or may not affect the dating. It could be evaluated by comparing the traditional Hebrew calendar with traditional molad against the traditional Hebrew calendar with my Progressive Molad.

 

KARL REPLIES:  Here Irv seems to be giving equal value to a one day difference from the lunar error as to a one month difference form the solar error.  I.e. It is equally bad for the traditional Hebrew calendar to be one day  different from a rectified calendar as it is to be one month different.

 

 

The effect of the solar drift is to delay the average start of each year by a few days. It does so by making some years start one month late while other years start around the same day.

 

[Bromberg] Correct, provided that you are referring to the first-numbered month of the year, which is Nisan. Currently about 4 years in 19 run one month late for 12 months from Nisan (following a "premature" leap month) until the leap month "should have been inserted" the following spring.

 

KARL REPLIES: It applies if the first month of the year is Tishri or any named month of the year.  By it, I refer to the effect of delaying a few years by 1 month while leaving others almost unchanged. Specific details such as which years are delayed would depend on start month.

 

The original point was the Aristeo thought that the months of the Hebrew calendar would now begin a few days late (rather the two hours on average). My point was that the solar error does not cause the months to be a few days late, only that some years are a month late.

 

 

Karl

 

16(16(19

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Irv Bromberg
Sent: 06 December 2017 19:02
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: The Hebrew calendar

 

Nope, the lunar part isn't particularly accurate, see:

http://www.sym454.org/hebrew/molad.htm

"like the Julian Calendar" is an exaggeration -- the Julian calendar's drift is almost twice as fast as the Hebrew calendar's drift, compared to the mean northward equinox, see:

http://www.sym454.org/hebrew/drift.htm

My "Rectified Hebrew Calendar" proposal would optimize both of the above to essentially the best that is possible with a fixed arithmetic lunisolar calendar, see:

http://www.sym454.org/hebrew/rect.htm

But anyhow, the Hebrew calendar was never concerned about the full moon landing on any particular date(s). This isn't of any Jewish ritual significance. The multi-day festivals of Sukkot and Passover occur around the time of the full moon, but that merely enabled outdoor celebrations beyond sunset, with Moon providing the illumination.

--- Irv Bromberg, University of Toronto, Canada


From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] on behalf of Walter J Ziobro [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 09:37
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: The Hebrew calendar

Indeed The lunar part of the Jewish calendar is quite accurate. It's the solar part that's drifting later, like the Julian Calendar

Walter Ziobro

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

 


On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 Amos Shapir <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Aristeo and calendar people,

The last full moon occurred on Sunday, December 3; it was the 15th day of Kislev in the Jewish calendar.

There's no full moon today because it's the 18th day of Kislev.

 

Virus-free. www.avg.com

 

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 2:25 AM, Aristeo Fernando <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Calendar People,

 

The Romans under Emperor Constantine fixed Easter (Christian Passover) in 325 AD in the Council of Nicaea because the Romans were dependent to the Jews regarding Passover.

 

The Jews followed suit 33 years later, in 358 AD, under Hillel II, when they reformed their calendars to what it is today.  There has never been a reformation since 358 AD.  When the Jews are expecting a full moon on the 14th or 15th of the month, there is no full moon today.  Why?  

 

Regards,

Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."




--

Amos Shapir

 

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Re: The Hebrew calendar

Aristeo Fernando-3
Dear Karl and Calendar People,

I manually did the months, and I found that it is exactly 228 solar years (235 lunar years) plus 1 day drift.  If there was a reformation in 358 AD (I believed that there was), by now it must have drifted by 6 or 7 days already.

Regards, 
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."



From: Karl Palmen <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, December 8, 2017 3:06 AM
Subject: Re: The Hebrew calendar

Dear Irv and Calendar People
 
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Irv Bromberg
Sent: 07 December 2017 14:29
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: The Hebrew calendar
 
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] on behalf of Karl Palmen [[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2017 08:06
The solar drift of the Hebrew Calendar is about 1 day in 195 to 245 years depending on when the tropical year begins. This is about 1/1000 year in 70 to 90 years.
The lunar drift is about 1 hour in about 560 years. This is  1/1000 lunar month in about 350 years.
 
[Bromberg] Neither rate is constant. The lunar drift is accelerating approximately quadratically as the excess between the traditional (constant) molad interval and the actual mean synodic month continues to grow. The (mean) "tropical year" should be irrelevant to any calendar because it doesn't relate to any equinox or solstice and is in the wrong time units -- calendars need mean solar time, whereas the MTY is in terms of atomic time. In the case of the Hebrew calendar, the mean northward equinoctial year, measured in mean solar time, seems to be the appropriate solar reference year.
 
KARL REPLIES: The values I give are intended to apply no more than millennium or two from the present time and show that the lunar accuracy is considerably (4 or 5 times) greater than solar accuracy even when compared relative the period (month or year respectively) rather than day.  I do not expect this situation to last much longer.
 
 
I think Aristeo may have confused the solar drift, which would have accumulated to a few days with the lunar drift, which has accumulated to very few hours.
 
[Bromberg] Although the lunar drift has to date accumulated to just slightly more than 2 hours (assuming, incorrectly, that Jerusalem is the intended reference meridian), that isn't a small drift. The molad calculation determines the provisional date of Rosh HaShanah, subject to the subsequent application of the Rosh HaShanah postponement rules. As it is about 2 hours late that means that the molad moment is on average about 2/24 day late, which means that on average the provisional date of Rosh HaShanah is currently a day late in about 1 in 12 years. The effect on the Hebrew calendar is complex to work out because of interactions with the postponement rules and leap years. Since Rosh HaShanah is postponed at least one day more often than not, the effect of the molad being a day late may or may not affect the dating. It could be evaluated by comparing the traditional Hebrew calendar with traditional molad against the traditional Hebrew calendar with my Progressive Molad.
 
KARL REPLIES:  Here Irv seems to be giving equal value to a one day difference from the lunar error as to a one month difference form the solar error.  I.e. It is equally bad for the traditional Hebrew calendar to be one day  different from a rectified calendar as it is to be one month different.
 
 
The effect of the solar drift is to delay the average start of each year by a few days. It does so by making some years start one month late while other years start around the same day.
 
[Bromberg] Correct, provided that you are referring to the first-numbered month of the year, which is Nisan. Currently about 4 years in 19 run one month late for 12 months from Nisan (following a "premature" leap month) until the leap month "should have been inserted" the following spring.
 
KARL REPLIES: It applies if the first month of the year is Tishri or any named month of the year.  By it, I refer to the effect of delaying a few years by 1 month while leaving others almost unchanged. Specific details such as which years are delayed would depend on start month.
 
The original point was the Aristeo thought that the months of the Hebrew calendar would now begin a few days late (rather the two hours on average). My point was that the solar error does not cause the months to be a few days late, only that some years are a month late.
 
 
Karl
 
16(16(19
 
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Irv Bromberg
Sent: 06 December 2017 19:02
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: The Hebrew calendar
 
Nope, the lunar part isn't particularly accurate, see:

http://www.sym454.org/hebrew/molad.htm

"like the Julian Calendar" is an exaggeration -- the Julian calendar's drift is almost twice as fast as the Hebrew calendar's drift, compared to the mean northward equinox, see:

http://www.sym454.org/hebrew/drift.htm

My "Rectified Hebrew Calendar" proposal would optimize both of the above to essentially the best that is possible with a fixed arithmetic lunisolar calendar, see:

http://www.sym454.org/hebrew/rect.htm

But anyhow, the Hebrew calendar was never concerned about the full moon landing on any particular date(s). This isn't of any Jewish ritual significance. The multi-day festivals of Sukkot and Passover occur around the time of the full moon, but that merely enabled outdoor celebrations beyond sunset, with Moon providing the illumination.

--- Irv Bromberg, University of Toronto, Canada

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] on behalf of Walter J Ziobro [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 09:37
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: The Hebrew calendar
Indeed The lunar part of the Jewish calendar is quite accurate. It's the solar part that's drifting later, like the Julian Calendar
Walter Ziobro
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
 

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 Amos Shapir <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Aristeo and calendar people,
The last full moon occurred on Sunday, December 3; it was the 15th day of Kislev in the Jewish calendar.
There's no full moon today because it's the 18th day of Kislev.
 
Virus-free. www.avg.com
 
On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 2:25 AM, Aristeo Fernando <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Calendar People,
 
The Romans under Emperor Constantine fixed Easter (Christian Passover) in 325 AD in the Council of Nicaea because the Romans were dependent to the Jews regarding Passover.
 
The Jews followed suit 33 years later, in 358 AD, under Hillel II, when they reformed their calendars to what it is today.  There has never been a reformation since 358 AD.  When the Jews are expecting a full moon on the 14th or 15th of the month, there is no full moon today.  Why?  
 
Regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."



--
Amos Shapir
 


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Re: The Hebrew calendar

Karl Palmen

Dear Aristeo and Calendar People

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Aristeo Fernando
Sent: 08 December 2017 11:36
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: The Hebrew calendar

 

Dear Karl and Calendar People,

I manually did the months, and I found that it is exactly 228 solar years (235 lunar years) plus 1 day drift.  If there was a reformation in 358 AD (I believed that there was), by now it must have drifted by 6 or 7 days already.

 

KARL REPLIES: This drift is the solar drift. It does not apply to which day a month begins. It apply only to which month a year begins to shift the average year start as explained in earlier note.

 

Karl

 

16(16(20

 

Regards, 

Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."