The Gregorian Calendar is a Religious Calendar (was 'Calendar petitions')

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The Gregorian Calendar is a Religious Calendar (was 'Calendar petitions')

Peter Meyer
Esteemed CALNDR-L members,

In 2011 I wrote an article giving three reasons to regard the Gregorian
Calendar as being a religious calendar.  Please see
https://www.hermetic.ch/cal_stud/gregorian_calendar_religious.htm

For those lacking time to read this article, the three reasons are:

(1) "In 525 CE, following a request from one of the Popes, Dionysius
Exiguus introduced an epoch for the Julian Calendar with the intention
that 'Year 1' would designate the year in which Jesus Christ was born,
or perhaps Dionysius intended it as the year in which the incarnation
occurred. This [created] ... the 'Christian' era, which hitherto did
not exist."

(2) "In Dionysius's chronology years were labelled 'Anno Domini',
meaning, 'in the year of Our Lord (Jesus Christ)'. Thus this method of
designating years (which method is still in current use) includes an
implicit affirmation of the existence of Jesus Christ ..."

(3) The Gregorian calendar reform was "implemented so as to bring the
date of Easter (one of the two main holy days of the Catholic religion)
back into accord with the date of the vernal equinox, as intended by
the Nicene Fathers ..."

I think it is undeniable that in origin, use and development, the
Gregorian Calendar is a religious calendar, despite the fact that this
is now generally ignored and that this calendar is now mainly used for
non-religious purposes.

Regards,
Peter Meyer
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Re: The Gregorian Calendar is a Religious Calendar (was 'Calendar petitions')

Christoph Päper-2
Nobody would deny that the epoch of our civil calendar is inherently Christian. As a trip to Thailand or Japan shows, the same calendar is still also used with different year counts. The Indian National Calendar differs a lot more, but shares the Gregorian leap cycle. Changing 'AD' to 'CE' or '+', using a year zero or even adding 10000 to the year count (as in the Holocene Calendar) does not really remove this religious bias, just hides it a bit more.

I would also question the notion that the Julian Calendar during the Roman Empire was a non-religious one. After all, the names of the months and days of the week refer to various gods for a large part. Its use of Kalendae, Nonae and Ides instead of ordinal days of the months is another difference from current use, by the way, as is the start of the year in March.

The lunar parts of the Gregorian reforms, i.e. the Computus, are motivated by religion, but effectively just increased the astronomical precision. The international civil calendar, as codified in ISO 8601, omits this altogether.
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Re: The Gregorian Calendar is a Religious Calendar (was 'Calendar petitions')

Michael H Deckers
In reply to this post by Peter Meyer
   On 2019-01-25 04:12, Peter Meyer gave some reasons
   why he considers the Gregorian calendar to be
   religious:


>
> (1) "In 525 CE, following a request from one of the Popes, Dionysius
> Exiguus introduced an epoch for the Julian Calendar with the intention
> that 'Year 1' would designate the year in which Jesus Christ was born,
> or perhaps Dionysius intended it as the year in which the incarnation
> occurred. This [created] ... the 'Christian' era, which hitherto did
> not exist."


    Someone calling the era of the Julian calendar "Christian"
    does not make the Julian calendar religious, and the Gregorian
    calendar has a different era anyway.

> (2) "In Dionysius's chronology years were labelled 'Anno Domini',
> meaning, 'in the year of Our Lord (Jesus Christ)'. Thus this method of
> designating years (which method is still in current use) includes an
> implicit affirmation of the existence of Jesus Christ ..."
>
    In modern usage, the affixes are CE and BCE, and "common era"
    is not a religious term.

> (3) The Gregorian calendar reform was "implemented so as to bring the
> date of Easter (one of the two main holy days of the Catholic
> religion) back into accord with the date of the vernal equinox, as
> intended by the Nicene Fathers ..."
>

    Easter is a religious holiday, so it is not surporising that
    its rules use religious concepts.

    But in the Gregorian reform of the calendar, the change of year
    length and the shift of the era were dictated by the length of the
    tropical year and the instant of the vernal equinox -- not by any
    religious concepts.

> I think it is undeniable that in origin, use and development, the
> Gregorian Calendar is a religious calendar, despite the fact that this
> is now generally ignored and that this calendar is now mainly used for
> non-religious purposes.
>
    Most advances in science and technology have been achieved
    by pious people, sometimes even with theological intentions.
    Ignoring such work just because of its origin would be silly.

    Michael Deckers.
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Re: The Gregorian Calendar is a Religious Calendar (was 'Calendar petitions')

Walter J Ziobro
In reply to this post by Peter Meyer

Dear Cristophe et al

IMO it is a moot question whether or not the Gregorian Calendar is a religious calendar Civil authorities could change the calendar for civil purposes at any time and there would only be opposition from religious groups if the 7 day week cycle were violated IMO the main block standing in the way of an alternative civil calendar is lack of consensus on what that alternative should be

Walter Ziobro




On Friday, January 25, 2019 Christoph Päper <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nobody would deny that the epoch of our civil calendar is inherently Christian. As a trip to Thailand or Japan shows, the same calendar is still also used with different year counts. The Indian National Calendar differs a lot more, but shares the Gregorian leap cycle. Changing 'AD' to 'CE' or '+', using a year zero or even adding 10000 to the year count (as in the Holocene Calendar) does not really remove this religious bias, just hides it a bit more.

I would also question the notion that the Julian Calendar during the Roman Empire was a non-religious one. After all, the names of the months and days of the week refer to various gods for a large part. Its use of Kalendae, Nonae and Ides instead of ordinal days of the months is another difference from current use, by the way, as is the start of the year in March.

The lunar parts of the Gregorian reforms, i.e. the Computus, are motivated by religion, but effectively just increased the astronomical precision. The international civil calendar, as codified in ISO 8601, omits this altogether.
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Re: The Gregorian Calendar is a Religious Calendar (was 'Calendar petitions')

Michael Ossipoff

Walter said:

.

[quote]

IMO the main block standing in the way of an alternative civil calendar is lack of consensus on what that alternative should be

[/quote

.

Yes, if there were some consistency among calendar-reform advocates, that might attract the notice of people who haven’t given the subject any attention.

.

There are all sorts of month-systems proposed, and calendar-reform advocates will never agree about that. In such a situation, something minimal is the obvious consensus proposal.  Other than just an annual day-count, without weeks, the minimal year-division consists of WeekDate.   …a numbering of weeks, with dates indicated by the week-number and the day-of-the-week. That’s obvious.

.

And WeekDate is all the more supported by the already wide use of ISO WeekDate…both in regards to precedent, available software, and evidence of usefulness.

.

Of course, with WeekDate’s minimal week-numbering and date-expression, the only remaining variable is year-start.

.

Evidently people who favor calendar-reform pretty much unanimously prefer a radical departure from Roman-Gregorian.

.

For the radical-departure goal, the natural year-start time would be a solstice or equinox. We’re now all used to starting the year in midwinter, making the South-Solstice the most natural year-start time, if it is desired to discard the arbitrary January 1st year-start.

.

…for if 1) either the overall public at some time want a drastic departure; or 2) maybe, sooner, success depends on a consensus proposal that calendar-reform advocates themselves like and will energetically share with the larger public.

.

But there are a few reasons why ISO WeekDate might be the more likely next calendar: 

.

1. The current widespread use, resulting in familiarity and proof-of-usefulness among some people.

.

2. The already-available software.

.

3. The fact that printed and digital Roman-Gregorian calendars are readily available to everyone, and so pegging Nearest-Monday to Gregorian January 1st, instead of the South-Solstice, would define the year-start in a way that’s immediately available and near-to-hand for everyone.

.

4. Increased parallel-usage could lead to ISO WeekDate taking first-place.

.

I emphasize that if ISO WeekDate (gradually or abruptly) became the universal civil calendar, it would, for all intents and purposes, be the same as if South-Solar WeekDate were official…because the ISO WeekDate date would make it obvious what the South-Solar WeekDate date is.   …because it would only be a matter of correcting the week-number in a simple way that would be uniform thoughout a year. For instance, during this year, the week-number for South-Solstice WeekDate is gotten by adding 1 to the week-number of ISO WeekDate.

.

…meaning that the only way in which it would really matter which is adopted would be if there were a strong public demand , in principle, for a complete radical departure from Roman-Gregorian (including its year-start time).   …a further departure that could later be made at such time as there be sufficiently widespread public demand, and would amount to a small modification of ISO WeekDate.

.

So maybe ISO WeekDate is the obvious next calendar, and the obvious calendar-reform for calendar-reform advocates to now be talking to others about.

.

5F  (South-Solstice WeekDate)

.

(…meaning Friday of week 5)

.

4F  (ISO WeekDate  (…but not in ISO format) )

.

January 25th  (Roman-Gregorian)

.

Michael Ossipoff

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Modified Gregorian Calendar Re: The Gregorian Calendar is a Religious Calendar (was 'Calendar petitions')

Brij Bhushan metric VIJ
Michael Ossipoff, list sirs:
>...There are all sorts of month-systems proposed, and calendar-reform advocates >will never agree about that. In such a situation, something minimal is the obvious >consensus proposal.
Some output from my home page: http://www.brijvij.com
is placed below, with minimal change ‘that’ I expect meets the criterion for all sections:
>Brij-Modified Gregorian Calendar:

http://calendars.wikia.com/wiki/Modified GregorianCalendar=Earth_Calendar

I have been discussing my proposed calendar(s) since 1971....image1.jpeg
This is equally good meeting ‘Solar & Lunar’ calculations (with or without Leap Days/Leap Weeks).
Regards,
Flt Lt Brij Bhushan VIJ ((Retd.), IAF
FRIDAY, 2019 January 25H13:58 (Decimal)

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 25, 2019, at 12:43, Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

Walter said:

.

[quote]

IMO the main block standing in the way of an alternative civil calendar is lack of consensus on what that alternative should be

[/quote

.

Yes, if there were some consistency among calendar-reform advocates, that might attract the notice of people who haven’t given the subject any attention.

.

There are all sorts of month-systems proposed, and calendar-reform advocates will never agree about that. In such a situation, something minimal is the obvious consensus proposal.  Other than just an annual day-count, without weeks, the minimal year-division consists of WeekDate.   …a numbering of weeks, with dates indicated by the week-number and the day-of-the-week. That’s obvious.

.

And WeekDate is all the more supported by the already wide use of ISO WeekDate…both in regards to precedent, available software, and evidence of usefulness.

.

Of course, with WeekDate’s minimal week-numbering and date-expression, the only remaining variable is year-start.

.

Evidently people who favor calendar-reform pretty much unanimously prefer a radical departure from Roman-Gregorian.

.

For the radical-departure goal, the natural year-start time would be a solstice or equinox. We’re now all used to starting the year in midwinter, making the South-Solstice the most natural year-start time, if it is desired to discard the arbitrary January 1st year-start.

.

…for if 1) either the overall public at some time want a drastic departure; or 2) maybe, sooner, success depends on a consensus proposal that calendar-reform advocates themselves like and will energetically share with the larger public.

.

But there are a few reasons why ISO WeekDate might be the more likely next calendar: 

.

1. The current widespread use, resulting in familiarity and proof-of-usefulness among some people.

.

2. The already-available software.

.

3. The fact that printed and digital Roman-Gregorian calendars are readily available to everyone, and so pegging Nearest-Monday to Gregorian January 1st, instead of the South-Solstice, would define the year-start in a way that’s immediately available and near-to-hand for everyone.

.

4. Increased parallel-usage could lead to ISO WeekDate taking first-place.

.

I emphasize that if ISO WeekDate (gradually or abruptly) became the universal civil calendar, it would, for all intents and purposes, be the same as if South-Solar WeekDate were official…because the ISO WeekDate date would make it obvious what the South-Solar WeekDate date is.   …because it would only be a matter of correcting the week-number in a simple way that would be uniform thoughout a year. For instance, during this year, the week-number for South-Solstice WeekDate is gotten by adding 1 to the week-number of ISO WeekDate.

.

…meaning that the only way in which it would really matter which is adopted would be if there were a strong public demand , in principle, for a complete radical departure from Roman-Gregorian (including its year-start time).   …a further departure that could later be made at such time as there be sufficiently widespread public demand, and would amount to a small modification of ISO WeekDate.

.

So maybe ISO WeekDate is the obvious next calendar, and the obvious calendar-reform for calendar-reform advocates to now be talking to others about.

.

5F  (South-Solstice WeekDate)

.

(…meaning Friday of week 5)

.

4F  (ISO WeekDate  (…but not in ISO format) )

.

January 25th  (Roman-Gregorian)

.

Michael Ossipoff

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Re: The Gregorian Calendar is a Religious Calendar (was 'Calendar petitions')

Christoph Päper-2
In reply to this post by Walter J Ziobro
Walter J Ziobro:
>
> IMO it is a moot question whether or not the Gregorian Calendar
> is a religious calendar

I agree.

> Civil authorities could change the calendar for
> civil purposes at any time and there would only be opposition from
> religious groups if the 7 day week cycle were violated

Christians could possibly even be convinced of the merits of a calendar with exactly 52 weeks in a common year, if they were educated about the precedence set forth by the ancient Enoch and Qumran calendars.

> IMO the main
> block standing in the way of an alternative civil calendar is lack of
> consensus on what that alternative should be

That and lack of conviction that a reform was necessary at all and of awareness that it would be possible, too.
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Re: The Gregorian Calendar is a Religious Calendar (was 'Calendar petitions')

Peter Meyer
In reply to this post by Peter Meyer
Esteemed CALNDR-L members,

> [Christoph:] Christians could possibly even be convinced of the
> merits of a calendar with exactly 52 weeks in a common year, if they
> were educated about the precedence set forth by the ancient Enoch and
> Qumran calendars.

First they would *want* to be educated.

> [Walter:] IMO the main
> block standing in the way of an alternative civil calendar is lack of
> consensus on what that alternative should be

> [Christoph:] That and lack of conviction that a reform was necessary at all
> and of awareness that it would be possible, too.

IMO a reformation of the calendar now in common use will occur if and
only if it is imposed upon everyone, so that they have no say in the
matter (similar to China's dystopian "social-credit" scheme).  This
would have to be a consequence of the implementation of a global
tyranny.  Given the accelerating pace of social control of citizens by
governments (via propaganda, fake news, subliminal programming,
outright coercian and the drive for universal surveillance, assisted by
present and future developments in AI), this appears increasingly
likely.  Also likely is that such a reformed calendar would not be
concerned with benefits to people but will be for increased efficiency
of the global tyranny.  Or perhaps our looming 1984 will not need any
reformed calendar.

Of course, humans being a fractious lot, the well-laid plans of the
instigators of this hoped-for-by-them global tyranny may yet come to
naught (and they may find themselves hanging from lampposts next to
their surveillance cameras).  And global disasters such as a nuclear
winter could also upset their plans.

Regards,
Peter
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Re: The Gregorian Calendar is a Religious Calendar (was 'Calendar petitions')

clifford emeric
To All

Now Peter's thoughts on this matter is the clearest perspective I yet
read on a calendar implementation bar none. There simply exists no need,
and the world as we think we know it just does not exist. Although the
condition of the world at large portrayed by Peter I suspect is worse
than what has revealed here.

Cheers Cliff


On 1/26/2019 20:00 PM, Peter Meyer wrote:

> Esteemed CALNDR-L members,
>
>> [Christoph:] Christians could possibly even be convinced of the
>> merits of a calendar with exactly 52 weeks in a common year, if they
>> were educated about the precedence set forth by the ancient Enoch and
>> Qumran calendars.
>
> First they would *want* to be educated.
>
>> [Walter:] IMO the main
>> block standing in the way of an alternative civil calendar is lack of
>> consensus on what that alternative should be
>
>> [Christoph:] That and lack of conviction that a reform was necessary
>> at all
>> and of awareness that it would be possible, too.
>
> IMO a reformation of the calendar now in common use will occur if and
> only if it is imposed upon everyone, so that they have no say in the
> matter (similar to China's dystopian "social-credit" scheme).  This
> would have to be a consequence of the implementation of a global
> tyranny.  Given the accelerating pace of social control of citizens by
> governments (via propaganda, fake news, subliminal programming,
> outright coercian and the drive for universal surveillance, assisted
> by present and future developments in AI), this appears increasingly
> likely.  Also likely is that such a reformed calendar would not be
> concerned with benefits to people but will be for increased efficiency
> of the global tyranny.  Or perhaps our looming 1984 will not need any
> reformed calendar.
>
> Of course, humans being a fractious lot, the well-laid plans of the
> instigators of this hoped-for-by-them global tyranny may yet come to
> naught (and they may find themselves hanging from lampposts next to
> their surveillance cameras).  And global disasters such as a nuclear
> winter could also upset their plans.
>
> Regards,
> Peter
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Re: The Gregorian Calendar is a Religious Calendar (was 'Calendar petitions')

Walter J Ziobro
In reply to this post by Peter Meyer

Dear Peter et al

It is sobering to consider that the two most prominent attempts to reform the calendar in modern times were undertaken by authoritarian regimes the French Republican Calendar and the Soviet Calendar IMO both failed for the same reason: attempting to abolish the 7 day week

Of all the proposals out there, IMO the one with the greatest chance of acceptance by democratic means is the Hanke-Henry proposal It has been crafted and updated to gain the broadest consensus:

1. It keeps the uninterrupted 7 day week
2. It has equal quarters of months of 30 or 31 days, which satisfies the regularity sought by corporate interests and government bureaucrats
3 It has modified its leap year rule to accommodate ISO standards

IMO the ISO standard is a kind of reform in itself and is the starting point of any further reform by gradual, Democratic means

The next step to get us closer to HH would be to define all secular holidays in terms of ISO weekdays, as I have proposed with my North American Weekday Holiday Act

Also the use of my Alternate Month Names for Accounting Calendars would allow businesses to test every possible arrangement of 30-30-31, 30-31-30, 31-30-30, 4-4-5, 4-5-4, and 5-4-4 symultaneouly in accord with ISO standards

The general acceptance of the ISO standards makes me cautiously optimistic

Walter Ziobro




On Saturday, January 26, 2019 Peter Meyer <[hidden email]> wrote:

Esteemed CALNDR-L members,

> [Christoph:] Christians could possibly even be convinced of the
> merits of a calendar with exactly 52 weeks in a common year, if they
> were educated about the precedence set forth by the ancient Enoch and
> Qumran calendars.

First they would *want* to be educated.

> [Walter:] IMO the main
> block standing in the way of an alternative civil calendar is lack of
> consensus on what that alternative should be

> [Christoph:] That and lack of conviction that a reform was necessary at all
> and of awareness that it would be possible, too.

IMO a reformation of the calendar now in common use will occur if and
only if it is imposed upon everyone, so that they have no say in the
matter (similar to China's dystopian "social-credit" scheme).  This
would have to be a consequence of the implementation of a global
tyranny.  Given the accelerating pace of social control of citizens by
governments (via propaganda, fake news, subliminal programming,
outright coercian and the drive for universal surveillance, assisted by
present and future developments in AI), this appears increasingly
likely.  Also likely is that such a reformed calendar would not be
concerned with benefits to people but will be for increased efficiency
of the global tyranny.  Or perhaps our looming 1984 will not need any
reformed calendar.

Of course, humans being a fractious lot, the well-laid plans of the
instigators of this hoped-for-by-them global tyranny may yet come to
naught (and they may find themselves hanging from lampposts next to
their surveillance cameras).  And global disasters such as a nuclear
winter could also upset their plans.

Regards,
Peter
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Re: The Gregorian Calendar is a Religious Calendar (was 'Calendar petitions')

Michael Ossipoff

Walter—

.

HH has gotten some favorable media-attention, because it has someone promoting it—two university-professors.  …favorable media-attention from reporters who have never heard about ISO WeekDate, simply because ISO WeekDate doesn’t have promoters.

.

Anyway, despite the promotion and the favorable media-attention, practically no one has heard about HH. It doesn’t seem to have budged at all in the direction of popular acceptance or interest.  It seems to have fizzled.

.

Regarding acceptance, interest and preference:

.

People who explicitly don’t want calendar-reform sometimes grudgingly accept HH as not as bad.   ...reluctantly express some grudging tolerance for it.  Can that translate to adoption?

.

People who express a favorable feeling about calendar-reform unanimously prefer one of the more radical proposals:  ISO WeekDate, 13X28, French-Republican,  or Asimov’s World-Seasonal.

.

In particular, people who are interested enough to answer at all, unanimously say that they prefer ISO WeekDate to HH.

.

ISO has that, plus the advantage of already being in wide use internationally, by companies and governments.  …and all the advantages that I mentioned in my previous post, such as already-available software.

.

The evidence suggests that, if ISO WeekDate had some promotion, someone making the effort to bring it to more people’s attention, it would probably evoke a lot more enthusiastic interest than HH.

.

So I suggest that ISO WeekDate is the one for calendar-reform advocates to be talking to people about.

.

Minimal change, or maximal convenience?   People interested enough to answer unanimously want the latter.

.

5 Su  (South-Solstice WeekDate)

4 Su  (ISO WeekDate (but not in ISO format) )

January 27th  (Roman-Gregorian)


Michael Ossipoff

.


On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 9:04 AM Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Peter et al

It is sobering to consider that the two most prominent attempts to reform the calendar in modern times were undertaken by authoritarian regimes the French Republican Calendar and the Soviet Calendar IMO both failed for the same reason: attempting to abolish the 7 day week

Of all the proposals out there, IMO the one with the greatest chance of acceptance by democratic means is the Hanke-Henry proposal It has been crafted and updated to gain the broadest consensus:

1. It keeps the uninterrupted 7 day week
2. It has equal quarters of months of 30 or 31 days, which satisfies the regularity sought by corporate interests and government bureaucrats
3 It has modified its leap year rule to accommodate ISO standards

IMO the ISO standard is a kind of reform in itself and is the starting point of any further reform by gradual, Democratic means

The next step to get us closer to HH would be to define all secular holidays in terms of ISO weekdays, as I have proposed with my North American Weekday Holiday Act

Also the use of my Alternate Month Names for Accounting Calendars would allow businesses to test every possible arrangement of 30-30-31, 30-31-30, 31-30-30, 4-4-5, 4-5-4, and 5-4-4 symultaneouly in accord with ISO standards

The general acceptance of the ISO standards makes me cautiously optimistic

Walter Ziobro


On Saturday, January 26, 2019 Peter Meyer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Esteemed CALNDR-L members,

> [Christoph:] Christians could possibly even be convinced of the
> merits of a calendar with exactly 52 weeks in a common year, if they
> were educated about the precedence set forth by the ancient Enoch and
> Qumran calendars.

First they would *want* to be educated.

> [Walter:] IMO the main
> block standing in the way of an alternative civil calendar is lack of
> consensus on what that alternative should be

> [Christoph:] That and lack of conviction that a reform was necessary at all
> and of awareness that it would be possible, too.

IMO a reformation of the calendar now in common use will occur if and
only if it is imposed upon everyone, so that they have no say in the
matter (similar to China's dystopian "social-credit" scheme).  This
would have to be a consequence of the implementation of a global
tyranny.  Given the accelerating pace of social control of citizens by
governments (via propaganda, fake news, subliminal programming,
outright coercian and the drive for universal surveillance, assisted by
present and future developments in AI), this appears increasingly
likely.  Also likely is that such a reformed calendar would not be
concerned with benefits to people but will be for increased efficiency
of the global tyranny.  Or perhaps our looming 1984 will not need any
reformed calendar.

Of course, humans being a fractious lot, the well-laid plans of the
instigators of this hoped-for-by-them global tyranny may yet come to
naught (and they may find themselves hanging from lampposts next to
their surveillance cameras).  And global disasters such as a nuclear
winter could also upset their plans.

Regards,
Peter
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Re: The Gregorian Calendar is a Religious Calendar (was 'Calendar petitions')

Walter J Ziobro
In reply to this post by Peter Meyer

Every other proposal matters even less




On Sunday, January 27, 2019 Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

Walter—

.

HH has gotten some favorable media-attention, because it has someone promoting it—two university-professors.  …favorable media-attention from reporters who have never heard about ISO WeekDate, simply because ISO WeekDate doesn’t have promoters.

.

Anyway, despite the promotion and the favorable media-attention, practically no one has heard about HH. It doesn’t seem to have budged at all in the direction of popular acceptance or interest.  It seems to have fizzled.

.

Regarding acceptance, interest and preference:

.

People who explicitly don’t want calendar-reform sometimes grudgingly accept HH as not as bad.   ...reluctantly express some grudging tolerance for it.  Can that translate to adoption?

.

People who express a favorable feeling about calendar-reform unanimously prefer one of the more radical proposals:  ISO WeekDate, 13X28, French-Republican,  or Asimov’s World-Seasonal.

.

In particular, people who are interested enough to answer at all, unanimously say that they prefer ISO WeekDate to HH.

.

ISO has that, plus the advantage of already being in wide use internationally, by companies and governments.  …and all the advantages that I mentioned in my previous post, such as already-available software.

.

The evidence suggests that, if ISO WeekDate had some promotion, someone making the effort to bring it to more people’s attention, it would probably evoke a lot more enthusiastic interest than HH.

.

So I suggest that ISO WeekDate is the one for calendar-reform advocates to be talking to people about.

.

Minimal change, or maximal convenience?   People interested enough to answer unanimously want the latter.

.

5 Su  (South-Solstice WeekDate)

4 Su  (ISO WeekDate (but not in ISO format) )

January 27th  (Roman-Gregorian)


Michael Ossipoff

.


On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 9:04 AM Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Peter et al

It is sobering to consider that the two most prominent attempts to reform the calendar in modern times were undertaken by authoritarian regimes the French Republican Calendar and the Soviet Calendar IMO both failed for the same reason: attempting to abolish the 7 day week

Of all the proposals out there, IMO the one with the greatest chance of acceptance by democratic means is the Hanke-Henry proposal It has been crafted and updated to gain the broadest consensus:

1. It keeps the uninterrupted 7 day week
2. It has equal quarters of months of 30 or 31 days, which satisfies the regularity sought by corporate interests and government bureaucrats
3 It has modified its leap year rule to accommodate ISO standards

IMO the ISO standard is a kind of reform in itself and is the starting point of any further reform by gradual, Democratic means

The next step to get us closer to HH would be to define all secular holidays in terms of ISO weekdays, as I have proposed with my North American Weekday Holiday Act

Also the use of my Alternate Month Names for Accounting Calendars would allow businesses to test every possible arrangement of 30-30-31, 30-31-30, 31-30-30, 4-4-5, 4-5-4, and 5-4-4 symultaneouly in accord with ISO standards

The general acceptance of the ISO standards makes me cautiously optimistic

Walter Ziobro


On Saturday, January 26, 2019 Peter Meyer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Esteemed CALNDR-L members,

> [Christoph:] Christians could possibly even be convinced of the
> merits of a calendar with exactly 52 weeks in a common year, if they
> were educated about the precedence set forth by the ancient Enoch and
> Qumran calendars.

First they would *want* to be educated.

> [Walter:] IMO the main
> block standing in the way of an alternative civil calendar is lack of
> consensus on what that alternative should be

> [Christoph:] That and lack of conviction that a reform was necessary at all
> and of awareness that it would be possible, too.

IMO a reformation of the calendar now in common use will occur if and
only if it is imposed upon everyone, so that they have no say in the
matter (similar to China's dystopian "social-credit" scheme).  This
would have to be a consequence of the implementation of a global
tyranny.  Given the accelerating pace of social control of citizens by
governments (via propaganda, fake news, subliminal programming,
outright coercian and the drive for universal surveillance, assisted by
present and future developments in AI), this appears increasingly
likely.  Also likely is that such a reformed calendar would not be
concerned with benefits to people but will be for increased efficiency
of the global tyranny.  Or perhaps our looming 1984 will not need any
reformed calendar.

Of course, humans being a fractious lot, the well-laid plans of the
instigators of this hoped-for-by-them global tyranny may yet come to
naught (and they may find themselves hanging from lampposts next to
their surveillance cameras).  And global disasters such as a nuclear
winter could also upset their plans.

Regards,
Peter
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Re: The Gregorian Calendar is a Religious Calendar (was 'Calendar petitions')

Michael Ossipoff


On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 10:23 PM Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Every other proposal matters even less


…you mean other than evidently, by available information, being unanimously preferred to HH by people who are interested enough to answer postings and polls on the question?

.

…you mean other than ISO WeekDate already being in wide use internationally?

.

6 M (South-Solstice WeekDate)

5 M (ISO WeekDate (but not in ISO format) )

.

Michael Ossipoff

 

 


.

Anyway, despite the promotion and the favorable media-attention, practically no one has heard about HH. It doesn’t seem to have budged at all in the direction of popular acceptance or interest.  It seems to have fizzled.

.

Regarding acceptance, interest and preference:

.

People who explicitly don’t want calendar-reform sometimes grudgingly accept HH as not as bad.   ...reluctantly express some grudging tolerance for it.  Can that translate to adoption?

.

People who express a favorable feeling about calendar-reform unanimously prefer one of the more radical proposals:  ISO WeekDate, 13X28, French-Republican,  or Asimov’s World-Seasonal.

.

In particular, people who are interested enough to answer at all, unanimously say that they prefer ISO WeekDate to HH.

.

ISO has that, plus the advantage of already being in wide use internationally, by companies and governments.  …and all the advantages that I mentioned in my previous post, such as already-available software.

.

The evidence suggests that, if ISO WeekDate had some promotion, someone making the effort to bring it to more people’s attention, it would probably evoke a lot more enthusiastic interest than HH.

.

So I suggest that ISO WeekDate is the one for calendar-reform advocates to be talking to people about.

.

Minimal change, or maximal convenience?   People interested enough to answer unanimously want the latter.

.

5 Su  (South-Solstice WeekDate)

4 Su  (ISO WeekDate (but not in ISO format) )

January 27th  (Roman-Gregorian)


Michael Ossipoff

.


On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 9:04 AM Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Peter et al

It is sobering to consider that the two most prominent attempts to reform the calendar in modern times were undertaken by authoritarian regimes the French Republican Calendar and the Soviet Calendar IMO both failed for the same reason: attempting to abolish the 7 day week

Of all the proposals out there, IMO the one with the greatest chance of acceptance by democratic means is the Hanke-Henry proposal It has been crafted and updated to gain the broadest consensus:

1. It keeps the uninterrupted 7 day week
2. It has equal quarters of months of 30 or 31 days, which satisfies the regularity sought by corporate interests and government bureaucrats
3 It has modified its leap year rule to accommodate ISO standards

IMO the ISO standard is a kind of reform in itself and is the starting point of any further reform by gradual, Democratic means

The next step to get us closer to HH would be to define all secular holidays in terms of ISO weekdays, as I have proposed with my North American Weekday Holiday Act

Also the use of my Alternate Month Names for Accounting Calendars would allow businesses to test every possible arrangement of 30-30-31, 30-31-30, 31-30-30, 4-4-5, 4-5-4, and 5-4-4 symultaneouly in accord with ISO standards

The general acceptance of the ISO standards makes me cautiously optimistic

Walter Ziobro


On Saturday, January 26, 2019 Peter Meyer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Esteemed CALNDR-L members,

> [Christoph:] Christians could possibly even be convinced of the
> merits of a calendar with exactly 52 weeks in a common year, if they
> were educated about the precedence set forth by the ancient Enoch and
> Qumran calendars.

First they would *want* to be educated.

> [Walter:] IMO the main
> block standing in the way of an alternative civil calendar is lack of
> consensus on what that alternative should be

> [Christoph:] That and lack of conviction that a reform was necessary at all
> and of awareness that it would be possible, too.

IMO a reformation of the calendar now in common use will occur if and
only if it is imposed upon everyone, so that they have no say in the
matter (similar to China's dystopian "social-credit" scheme).  This
would have to be a consequence of the implementation of a global
tyranny.  Given the accelerating pace of social control of citizens by
governments (via propaganda, fake news, subliminal programming,
outright coercian and the drive for universal surveillance, assisted by
present and future developments in AI), this appears increasingly
likely.  Also likely is that such a reformed calendar would not be
concerned with benefits to people but will be for increased efficiency
of the global tyranny.  Or perhaps our looming 1984 will not need any
reformed calendar.

Of course, humans being a fractious lot, the well-laid plans of the
instigators of this hoped-for-by-them global tyranny may yet come to
naught (and they may find themselves hanging from lampposts next to
their surveillance cameras).  And global disasters such as a nuclear
winter could also upset their plans.

Regards,
Peter
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Re: The Gregorian Calendar is a Religious Calendar (was 'Calendar petitions')

Walter J Ziobro
In reply to this post by Peter Meyer

Dear Michael et al

If you want a consensus proposal, it would be hard at this time to find any better than HH

Walter Ziobro




On Monday, January 28, 2019 Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:



On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 10:23 PM Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Every other proposal matters even less


…you mean other than evidently, by available information, being unanimously preferred to HH by people who are interested enough to answer postings and polls on the question?

.

…you mean other than ISO WeekDate already being in wide use internationally?

.

6 M (South-Solstice WeekDate)

5 M (ISO WeekDate (but not in ISO format) )

.

Michael Ossipoff

 

 


.

Anyway, despite the promotion and the favorable media-attention, practically no one has heard about HH. It doesn’t seem to have budged at all in the direction of popular acceptance or interest.  It seems to have fizzled.

.

Regarding acceptance, interest and preference:

.

People who explicitly don’t want calendar-reform sometimes grudgingly accept HH as not as bad.   ...reluctantly express some grudging tolerance for it.  Can that translate to adoption?

.

People who express a favorable feeling about calendar-reform unanimously prefer one of the more radical proposals:  ISO WeekDate, 13X28, French-Republican,  or Asimov’s World-Seasonal.

.

In particular, people who are interested enough to answer at all, unanimously say that they prefer ISO WeekDate to HH.

.

ISO has that, plus the advantage of already being in wide use internationally, by companies and governments.  …and all the advantages that I mentioned in my previous post, such as already-available software.

.

The evidence suggests that, if ISO WeekDate had some promotion, someone making the effort to bring it to more people’s attention, it would probably evoke a lot more enthusiastic interest than HH.

.

So I suggest that ISO WeekDate is the one for calendar-reform advocates to be talking to people about.

.

Minimal change, or maximal convenience?   People interested enough to answer unanimously want the latter.

.

5 Su  (South-Solstice WeekDate)

4 Su  (ISO WeekDate (but not in ISO format) )

January 27th  (Roman-Gregorian)


Michael Ossipoff

.


On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 9:04 AM Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Peter et al

It is sobering to consider that the two most prominent attempts to reform the calendar in modern times were undertaken by authoritarian regimes the French Republican Calendar and the Soviet Calendar IMO both failed for the same reason: attempting to abolish the 7 day week

Of all the proposals out there, IMO the one with the greatest chance of acceptance by democratic means is the Hanke-Henry proposal It has been crafted and updated to gain the broadest consensus:

1. It keeps the uninterrupted 7 day week
2. It has equal quarters of months of 30 or 31 days, which satisfies the regularity sought by corporate interests and government bureaucrats
3 It has modified its leap year rule to accommodate ISO standards

IMO the ISO standard is a kind of reform in itself and is the starting point of any further reform by gradual, Democratic means

The next step to get us closer to HH would be to define all secular holidays in terms of ISO weekdays, as I have proposed with my North American Weekday Holiday Act

Also the use of my Alternate Month Names for Accounting Calendars would allow businesses to test every possible arrangement of 30-30-31, 30-31-30, 31-30-30, 4-4-5, 4-5-4, and 5-4-4 symultaneouly in accord with ISO standards

The general acceptance of the ISO standards makes me cautiously optimistic

Walter Ziobro


On Saturday, January 26, 2019 Peter Meyer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Esteemed CALNDR-L members,

> [Christoph:] Christians could possibly even be convinced of the
> merits of a calendar with exactly 52 weeks in a common year, if they
> were educated about the precedence set forth by the ancient Enoch and
> Qumran calendars.

First they would *want* to be educated.

> [Walter:] IMO the main
> block standing in the way of an alternative civil calendar is lack of
> consensus on what that alternative should be

> [Christoph:] That and lack of conviction that a reform was necessary at all
> and of awareness that it would be possible, too.

IMO a reformation of the calendar now in common use will occur if and
only if it is imposed upon everyone, so that they have no say in the
matter (similar to China's dystopian "social-credit" scheme).  This
would have to be a consequence of the implementation of a global
tyranny.  Given the accelerating pace of social control of citizens by
governments (via propaganda, fake news, subliminal programming,
outright coercian and the drive for universal surveillance, assisted by
present and future developments in AI), this appears increasingly
likely.  Also likely is that such a reformed calendar would not be
concerned with benefits to people but will be for increased efficiency
of the global tyranny.  Or perhaps our looming 1984 will not need any
reformed calendar.

Of course, humans being a fractious lot, the well-laid plans of the
instigators of this hoped-for-by-them global tyranny may yet come to
naught (and they may find themselves hanging from lampposts next to
their surveillance cameras).  And global disasters such as a nuclear
winter could also upset their plans.

Regards,
Peter
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Re: The Gregorian Calendar is a Religious Calendar (was 'Calendar petitions')

Michael Ossipoff
If you want a consensus proposal, it would be hard at this time to find any better than HH

I've felt the same way--before I started asking people and polling. Yes, HH is the proposal most accepted (grudgingly) by people who don't want calendar-reform.  But does it evoke any enthusiasm?  People who will help promote reform, people who will spread the word about a proposal, will be people who are really interested in it, people who actually want that reform.   Reluctant, grudging toleration won't be the spark and kindling that starts the rapid spread to more people..

I've asked at forums. I've done polling. I talk to non-calendarists. What I've been saying here is that the ones who are favorable to calendar-reform, the people who are even interested enough to reply at all--they all people prefer something more different and radical. Preferences expressed were for ISO WeekDate, 13X28, French-Republican, and Asimov's World Seasonal.  There was no support for or mention of HH among the internet respondents.

I did a poll in which I asked people to choose between ISO WeekDate and HH.  (...both of which I completely defined)

Unanimously, by 100%, the internet respondents to the poll chose ISO WeekDate over HH.

6 Tu

Michael Ossipoff


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ES&Cheapest Re: The Gregorian Calendar is a Religious Calendar (was 'Calendar petitions')

Brij Bhushan metric VIJ
My proposal as the Easiest, Surest & Cheapest ever option is placed below: image1.jpeg
Whatever be the truth, it is my feeling that the Gregorian Calendar was not a religious calendar, since it has the Solar base (not of Lunar base). However, .....
My above option is Easiest, to implement; Surest to realise/& teach (with gained advantage for people born in February 29 to celebrate their Birth Date); Cheapest being least costly to ‘implement change’. OFTEN, I wonder what is being looked for the Reform of Calendar ‘expected to get in HH or ISO options’ and not obtainable in my posted/ discussed calendar, having the best Mean Year & Mean Lunation as my results show!
Regards,
Ex-FltLt Brij Bhushan VIJ (Retd.), IAF
MONDAY, 2019 January 29H 21:74 (decimal)

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 28, 2019, at 20:38, Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

If you want a consensus proposal, it would be hard at this time to find any better than HH

I've felt the same way--before I started asking people and polling. Yes, HH is the proposal most accepted (grudgingly) by people who don't want calendar-reform.  But does it evoke any enthusiasm?  People who will help promote reform, people who will spread the word about a proposal, will be people who are really interested in it, people who actually want that reform.   Reluctant, grudging toleration won't be the spark and kindling that starts the rapid spread to more people..

I've asked at forums. I've done polling. I talk to non-calendarists. What I've been saying here is that the ones who are favorable to calendar-reform, the people who are even interested enough to reply at all--they all people prefer something more different and radical. Preferences expressed were for ISO WeekDate, 13X28, French-Republican, and Asimov's World Seasonal.  There was no support for or mention of HH among the internet respondents.

I did a poll in which I asked people to choose between ISO WeekDate and HH.  (...both of which I completely defined)

Unanimously, by 100%, the internet respondents to the poll chose ISO WeekDate over HH.

6 Tu

Michael Ossipoff


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Re: ES&Cheapest Re: The Gregorian Calendar is a Religious Calendar (was 'Calendar petitions')

Michael Ossipoff
Brij--

...but it doesn't get any easier, simpler or briefer than

6 W

(Wednesday of week 6)

...today's date in South-Solstice WeekDate.

Michael Ossipoff
...



On Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 11:44 PM Brij Bhushan metric VIJ <[hidden email]> wrote:
My proposal as the Easiest, Surest & Cheapest ever option is placed below: image1.jpeg
Whatever be the truth, it is my feeling that the Gregorian Calendar was not a religious calendar, since it has the Solar base (not of Lunar base). However, .....
My above option is Easiest, to implement; Surest to realise/& teach (with gained advantage for people born in February 29 to celebrate their Birth Date); Cheapest being least costly to ‘implement change’. OFTEN, I wonder what is being looked for the Reform of Calendar ‘expected to get in HH or ISO options’ and not obtainable in my posted/ discussed calendar, having the best Mean Year & Mean Lunation as my results show!
Regards,
Ex-FltLt Brij Bhushan VIJ (Retd.), IAF
MONDAY, 2019 January 29H 21:74 (decimal)

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 28, 2019, at 20:38, Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

If you want a consensus proposal, it would be hard at this time to find any better than HH

I've felt the same way--before I started asking people and polling. Yes, HH is the proposal most accepted (grudgingly) by people who don't want calendar-reform.  But does it evoke any enthusiasm?  People who will help promote reform, people who will spread the word about a proposal, will be people who are really interested in it, people who actually want that reform.   Reluctant, grudging toleration won't be the spark and kindling that starts the rapid spread to more people..

I've asked at forums. I've done polling. I talk to non-calendarists. What I've been saying here is that the ones who are favorable to calendar-reform, the people who are even interested enough to reply at all--they all people prefer something more different and radical. Preferences expressed were for ISO WeekDate, 13X28, French-Republican, and Asimov's World Seasonal.  There was no support for or mention of HH among the internet respondents.

I did a poll in which I asked people to choose between ISO WeekDate and HH.  (...both of which I completely defined)

Unanimously, by 100%, the internet respondents to the poll chose ISO WeekDate over HH.

6 Tu

Michael Ossipoff


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Monday Start Re: ES&Cheapest Re: The Gregorian Calendar is a Religious Calendar (was 'Calendar petitions')

Brij Bhushan metric VIJ
Michael, list sirs:
>......but it doesn't get any easier, simpler or briefer than..
From my supplier ‘format’, you may like to note: Jan.29=W04-D01
Which is Monday of Week 05, as can be read direct after ‘Monday START from Jan.01’.
Flt Lt Brij Bhushan VIJ (Retd.), IAF
TUESDAY, 2019 Jan.29H21:03 (decimal)
Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 29, 2019, at 20:26, Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

Brij--

...but it doesn't get any easier, simpler or briefer than

6 W

(Wednesday of week 6)

...today's date in South-Solstice WeekDate.

Michael Ossipoff
...



On Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 11:44 PM Brij Bhushan metric VIJ <[hidden email]> wrote:
My proposal as the Easiest, Surest & Cheapest ever option is placed below: <image1.jpeg>
Whatever be the truth, it is my feeling that the Gregorian Calendar was not a religious calendar, since it has the Solar base (not of Lunar base). However, .....
My above option is Easiest, to implement; Surest to realise/& teach (with gained advantage for people born in February 29 to celebrate their Birth Date); Cheapest being least costly to ‘implement change’. OFTEN, I wonder what is being looked for the Reform of Calendar ‘expected to get in HH or ISO options’ and not obtainable in my posted/ discussed calendar, having the best Mean Year & Mean Lunation as my results show!
Regards,
Ex-FltLt Brij Bhushan VIJ (Retd.), IAF
MONDAY, 2019 January 29H 21:74 (decimal)

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 28, 2019, at 20:38, Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

If you want a consensus proposal, it would be hard at this time to find any better than HH

I've felt the same way--before I started asking people and polling. Yes, HH is the proposal most accepted (grudgingly) by people who don't want calendar-reform.  But does it evoke any enthusiasm?  People who will help promote reform, people who will spread the word about a proposal, will be people who are really interested in it, people who actually want that reform.   Reluctant, grudging toleration won't be the spark and kindling that starts the rapid spread to more people..

I've asked at forums. I've done polling. I talk to non-calendarists. What I've been saying here is that the ones who are favorable to calendar-reform, the people who are even interested enough to reply at all--they all people prefer something more different and radical. Preferences expressed were for ISO WeekDate, 13X28, French-Republican, and Asimov's World Seasonal.  There was no support for or mention of HH among the internet respondents.

I did a poll in which I asked people to choose between ISO WeekDate and HH.  (...both of which I completely defined)

Unanimously, by 100%, the internet respondents to the poll chose ISO WeekDate over HH.

6 Tu

Michael Ossipoff



image1.jpeg (195K) Download Attachment
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Re: Monday Start Re: ES&Cheapest Re: The Gregorian Calendar is a Religious Calendar (was 'Calendar petitions')

Michael Ossipoff

Brij—


From my supplier ‘format’, you may like to note: Jan.29=W04-D01

Which is Monday of Week 05, as can be read direct after ‘Monday START from Jan.01’.


.

Yes, that (ISO WeekDate) would be a good proposal, maybe the best one to be talking to people about.

.

But I suggest that there should be a poll between ISO WeekDate vs South-Solstice WeekDate.

.

…because you never know which would be more popular without polling and asking.

.

As Christoff once pointed out to me, you don’t need the “0” in front of the “3”, the number of the day-of-the-week, because the day-of-the-week is just a 1-digit number, and so there’s no need for a placeholding “0” in front of  it.

.

So it would be W05-3     …or 5 W, as I prefer to write, for today’s date in ISO WeekDate.

.

(…today being Wednesday, Roman-Gregorian January 30th.)

.

6 W

.

Michael Ossipoff

 



...









I did a poll in which I asked people to choose between ISO WeekDate and HH.  (...both of which I completely defined)

Unanimously, by 100%, the internet respondents to the poll chose ISO WeekDate over HH.

6 Tu

Michael Ossipoff