Start of Yerm Lunar Calendar

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Start of Yerm Lunar Calendar

Ryan

I was looking into the Kalendis app on PC and determined the start of YLC so I went zooming through the dates in the past and determined that the start of said calendar as 00-01(01(01 was on August 28, 553 AD Gregorian/August 26, 553 AD Julian (Sym454 8/30/0553, Sym010 8/28/0553, Hebrew date (sunset to sunset): Yom Shlishi, 30 Av, 4313, Chinese Date: Year 10/60 = 10-10 (Water-Chicken) (3250), month 8, day 2 [Sexagenary Day / 60 = stem-branch: 29/60 = 9-5 (Water-Dragon), Maj/Min solar term 7-7, Cycle 55], Moon age Lunar Age: 22h 34m 59s as of 00:00:00 GMT) Is that a true epoch (aka start) of Yerm Lunar Calendar? However new Yerm (Cycle 21 Yerm 17) occurs 01/18/2018 Thu (Assumingly Yerm count number 1109 [52*21+17 = 1109])

 

-Ryan.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

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Re: Start of Yerm Lunar Calendar

Karl Palmen

Dear Ryan and Calendar People

 

The epoch is one 52-yerm cycle later and occurs on 16 May 622 in the Julian calendar between the solar and lunar Hijri epochs.

I didn’t deliberately choose the cycle starts so that one cycle would start then, but when I did find out that a cycle did start then I chose to number it cycle 1.

 

See https://www.hermetic.ch/cal_stud/palmen/yerm1.htm#opts and the calendar converter at

http://the-light.com/cal/converter/ .

 

Karl

 

16(17(22 from noon

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ryan Provost
Sent: 06 January 2018 23:47
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Start of Yerm Lunar Calendar

 

I was looking into the Kalendis app on PC and determined the start of YLC so I went zooming through the dates in the past and determined that the start of said calendar as 00-01(01(01 was on August 28, 553 AD Gregorian/August 26, 553 AD Julian (Sym454 8/30/0553, Sym010 8/28/0553, Hebrew date (sunset to sunset): Yom Shlishi, 30 Av, 4313, Chinese Date: Year 10/60 = 10-10 (Water-Chicken) (3250), month 8, day 2 [Sexagenary Day / 60 = stem-branch: 29/60 = 9-5 (Water-Dragon), Maj/Min solar term 7-7, Cycle 55], Moon age Lunar Age: 22h 34m 59s as of 00:00:00 GMT) Is that a true epoch (aka start) of Yerm Lunar Calendar? However new Yerm (Cycle 21 Yerm 17) occurs 01/18/2018 Thu (Assumingly Yerm count number 1109 [52*21+17 = 1109])

 

-Ryan.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

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Re: Start of Yerm Lunar Calendar

Walter J Ziobro

It has occurred to me that the true start of the Islamic Era is actually 3 months prior to July 622 AD/CE. This is so because Mohammed didn't receive his revelation to ban leap months until 10 years into the era Thus there must have been 3 leap months prior to that, meaning that the true Hijira occurred in April 622

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail




On Monday, January 8, 2018 Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Ryan and Calendar People

 

The epoch is one 52-yerm cycle later and occurs on 16 May 622 in the Julian calendar between the solar and lunar Hijri epochs.

I didn’t deliberately choose the cycle starts so that one cycle would start then, but when I did find out that a cycle did start then I chose to number it cycle 1.

 

See https://www.hermetic.ch/cal_stud/palmen/yerm1.htm#opts and the calendar converter at

http://the-light.com/cal/converter/ .

 

Karl

 

16(17(22 from noon

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:CALNDR-L@...] On Behalf Of Ryan Provost
Sent: 06 January 2018 23:47
To: CALNDR-L@...
Subject: Start of Yerm Lunar Calendar

 

I was looking into the Kalendis app on PC and determined the start of YLC so I went zooming through the dates in the past and determined that the start of said calendar as 00-01(01(01 was on August 28, 553 AD Gregorian/August 26, 553 AD Julian (Sym454 8/30/0553, Sym010 8/28/0553, Hebrew date (sunset to sunset): Yom Shlishi, 30 Av, 4313, Chinese Date: Year 10/60 = 10-10 (Water-Chicken) (3250), month 8, day 2 [Sexagenary Day / 60 = stem-branch: 29/60 = 9-5 (Water-Dragon), Maj/Min solar term 7-7, Cycle 55], Moon age Lunar Age: 22h 34m 59s as of 00:00:00 GMT) Is that a true epoch (aka start) of Yerm Lunar Calendar? However new Yerm (Cycle 21 Yerm 17) occurs 01/18/2018 Thu (Assumingly Yerm count number 1109 [52*21+17 = 1109])

 

-Ryan.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

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Re: Start of Yerm Lunar Calendar

Karl Palmen

Dear Walter, Ryan and Calendar People

 

Given that the mean number of leap months per year is about 0.368, one could have either 3 or 4 leap months in 10 years and 4 would occur more often than 3. If it were 4, the “true Hijira” (the start of the lunisolar year later referred to as AH 1) would have occurred at the March Equinox and so coincide with the solar Hijri.

 

One point that I was reminded of in specifying a calendar, one cannot say that the epoch of the calendar is <day>, without also saying whether the year that begins then is year 1 or year 0. I’d prefer an explicit statement such as “Year 1 began at <day>.

 

My yerm calendar article https://www.hermetic.ch/cal_stud/palmen/yerm1.htm

makes no mention of an epoch for the calendar. The calendar is intended to be a cyclic calendar used for any time that it is accurate and so does not have a start, only the start of a cycle (present cycle chosen). For calendar conversion, it is useful to number the cycles and chose the numbering so that cycle 1 begins near the Hijri.

 

Karl

 

16(17(23

 

PS: Yerm 17 begins on the 17th at noon local time.

 

From: Walter J Ziobro [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 08 January 2018 23:46
To: Palmen, Karl (STFC,RAL,ISIS); [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Start of Yerm Lunar Calendar

 

It has occurred to me that the true start of the Islamic Era is actually 3 months prior to July 622 AD/CE. This is so because Mohammed didn't receive his revelation to ban leap months until 10 years into the era Thus there must have been 3 leap months prior to that, meaning that the true Hijira occurred in April 622

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

 


On Monday, January 8, 2018 Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Ryan and Calendar People

 

The epoch is one 52-yerm cycle later and occurs on 16 May 622 in the Julian calendar between the solar and lunar Hijri epochs.

I didn’t deliberately choose the cycle starts so that one cycle would start then, but when I did find out that a cycle did start then I chose to number it cycle 1.

 

See https://www.hermetic.ch/cal_stud/palmen/yerm1.htm#opts and the calendar converter at

http://the-light.com/cal/converter/ .

 

Karl

 

16(17(22 from noon

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ryan Provost
Sent: 06 January 2018 23:47
To: CALNDR-[hidden email]
Subject: Start of Yerm Lunar Calendar

 

I was looking into the Kalendis app on PC and determined the start of YLC so I went zooming through the dates in the past and determined that the start of said calendar as 00-01(01(01 was on August 28, 553 AD Gregorian/August 26, 553 AD Julian (Sym454 8/30/0553, Sym010 8/28/0553, Hebrew date (sunset to sunset): Yom Shlishi, 30 Av, 4313, Chinese Date: Year 10/60 = 10-10 (Water-Chicken) (3250), month 8, day 2 [Sexagenary Day / 60 = stem-branch: 29/60 = 9-5 (Water-Dragon), Maj/Min solar term 7-7, Cycle 55], Moon age Lunar Age: 22h 34m 59s as of 00:00:00 GMT) Is that a true epoch (aka start) of Yerm Lunar Calendar? However new Yerm (Cycle 21 Yerm 17) occurs 01/18/2018 Thu (Assumingly Yerm count number 1109 [52*21+17 = 1109])

 

-Ryan.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

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Re: Start of Yerm Lunar Calendar

Walter J Ziobro

Dear Karl

I suspect that Mohammed's revelation was timely received to prevent a 4th leap month from being added, so I m inclined to believe that there were only 3 added from AH 1

Walter Ziobro

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail




On Tuesday, January 9, 2018 karl.palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Walter, Ryan and Calendar People

 

Given that the mean number of leap months per year is about 0.368, one could have either 3 or 4 leap months in 10 years and 4 would occur more often than 3. If it were 4, the “true Hijira” (the start of the lunisolar year later referred to as AH 1) would have occurred at the March Equinox and so coincide with the solar Hijri.

 

One point that I was reminded of in specifying a calendar, one cannot say that the epoch of the calendar is <day>, without also saying whether the year that begins then is year 1 or year 0. I’d prefer an explicit statement such as “Year 1 began at <day>.

 

My yerm calendar article https://www.hermetic.ch/cal_stud/palmen/yerm1.htm

makes no mention of an epoch for the calendar. The calendar is intended to be a cyclic calendar used for any time that it is accurate and so does not have a start, only the start of a cycle (present cycle chosen). For calendar conversion, it is useful to number the cycles and chose the numbering so that cycle 1 begins near the Hijri.

 

Karl

 

16(17(23

 

PS: Yerm 17 begins on the 17th at noon local time.

 

From: Walter J Ziobro [mailto:walterziobro@...]
Sent: 08 January 2018 23:46
To: Palmen, Karl (STFC,RAL,ISIS); CALNDR-L@...
Subject: Re: Start of Yerm Lunar Calendar

 

It has occurred to me that the true start of the Islamic Era is actually 3 months prior to July 622 AD/CE. This is so because Mohammed didn't receive his revelation to ban leap months until 10 years into the era Thus there must have been 3 leap months prior to that, meaning that the true Hijira occurred in April 622

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

 


On Monday, January 8, 2018 Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Ryan and Calendar People

 

The epoch is one 52-yerm cycle later and occurs on 16 May 622 in the Julian calendar between the solar and lunar Hijri epochs.

I didn’t deliberately choose the cycle starts so that one cycle would start then, but when I did find out that a cycle did start then I chose to number it cycle 1.

 

See https://www.hermetic.ch/cal_stud/palmen/yerm1.htm#opts and the calendar converter at

http://the-light.com/cal/converter/ .

 

Karl

 

16(17(22 from noon

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ryan Provost
Sent: 06 January 2018 23:47
To: CALNDR-[hidden email]
Subject: Start of Yerm Lunar Calendar

 

I was looking into the Kalendis app on PC and determined the start of YLC so I went zooming through the dates in the past and determined that the start of said calendar as 00-01(01(01 was on August 28, 553 AD Gregorian/August 26, 553 AD Julian (Sym454 8/30/0553, Sym010 8/28/0553, Hebrew date (sunset to sunset): Yom Shlishi, 30 Av, 4313, Chinese Date: Year 10/60 = 10-10 (Water-Chicken) (3250), month 8, day 2 [Sexagenary Day / 60 = stem-branch: 29/60 = 9-5 (Water-Dragon), Maj/Min solar term 7-7, Cycle 55], Moon age Lunar Age: 22h 34m 59s as of 00:00:00 GMT) Is that a true epoch (aka start) of Yerm Lunar Calendar? However new Yerm (Cycle 21 Yerm 17) occurs 01/18/2018 Thu (Assumingly Yerm count number 1109 [52*21+17 = 1109])

 

-Ryan.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

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Re: Start of Yerm Lunar Calendar

Walter J Ziobro
Dear Karl:

It appears that the entry in Wikipedia for Hagira supports my theory:



"Thus it is important to remember that whenever the tabular Islamic calendar invented by Muslim astronomers is extended back in time it changes all these dates by about 88 days or three lunar months as the first day of the year during which the Hijrah occurred, 1 Muharram AH 1, would be mistaken from Monday 19 April 622 to Friday 16 July 622. The Muslim dates of the Hijrah are those recorded in an original lunisolar Arabic calendar that were never converted into the purely lunar calendar to account for the three intercalary months inserted during the next nine years until intercalary months were prohibited during the year of Muhammad's last Hajj (AH 10)."

-Walter Ziobro


-----Original Message-----
From: Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]>
To: karl.palmen <[hidden email]>; CALNDR-L <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tue, Jan 9, 2018 9:35 am
Subject: RE: Start of Yerm Lunar Calendar

Dear Karl
I suspect that Mohammed's revelation was timely received to prevent a 4th leap month from being added, so I m inclined to believe that there were only 3 added from AH 1
Walter Ziobro
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

On Tuesday, January 9, 2018 karl.palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Walter, Ryan and Calendar People
 
Given that the mean number of leap months per year is about 0.368, one could have either 3 or 4 leap months in 10 years and 4 would occur more often than 3. If it were 4, the “true Hijira” (the start of the lunisolar year later referred to as AH 1) would have occurred at the March Equinox and so coincide with the solar Hijri.
 
One point that I was reminded of in specifying a calendar, one cannot say that the epoch of the calendar is <day>, without also saying whether the year that begins then is year 1 or year 0. I’d prefer an explicit statement such as “Year 1 began at <day>.
 
makes no mention of an epoch for the calendar. The calendar is intended to be a cyclic calendar used for any time that it is accurate and so does not have a start, only the start of a cycle (present cycle chosen). For calendar conversion, it is useful to number the cycles and chose the numbering so that cycle 1 begins near the Hijri.
 
Karl
 
16(17(23
 
PS: Yerm 17 begins on the 17th at noon local time.
 
From: Walter J Ziobro [[hidden email]]
Sent: 08 January 2018 23:46
To: Palmen, Karl (STFC,RAL,ISIS); CALNDR-[hidden email]
Subject: Re: Start of Yerm Lunar Calendar
 
It has occurred to me that the true start of the Islamic Era is actually 3 months prior to July 622 AD/CE. This is so because Mohammed didn't receive his revelation to ban leap months until 10 years into the era Thus there must have been 3 leap months prior to that, meaning that the true Hijira occurred in April 622
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
 

On Monday, January 8, 2018 Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Ryan and Calendar People
 
The epoch is one 52-yerm cycle later and occurs on 16 May 622 in the Julian calendar between the solar and lunar Hijri epochs.
I didn’t deliberately choose the cycle starts so that one cycle would start then, but when I did find out that a cycle did start then I chose to number it cycle 1.
 
 
Karl
 
16(17(22 from noon
 
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ryan Provost
Sent: 06 January 2018 23:47
To: CALNDR-[hidden email]
Subject: Start of Yerm Lunar Calendar
 
I was looking into the Kalendis app on PC and determined the start of YLC so I went zooming through the dates in the past and determined that the start of said calendar as 00-01(01(01 was on August 28, 553 AD Gregorian/August 26, 553 AD Julian (Sym454 8/30/0553, Sym010 8/28/0553, Hebrew date (sunset to sunset): Yom Shlishi, 30 Av, 4313, Chinese Date: Year 10/60 = 10-10 (Water-Chicken) (3250), month 8, day 2 [Sexagenary Day / 60 = stem-branch: 29/60 = 9-5 (Water-Dragon), Maj/Min solar term 7-7, Cycle 55], Moon age Lunar Age: 22h 34m 59s as of 00:00:00 GMT) Is that a true epoch (aka start) of Yerm Lunar Calendar? However new Yerm (Cycle 21 Yerm 17) occurs 01/18/2018 Thu (Assumingly Yerm count number 1109 [52*21+17 = 1109])
 
-Ryan.
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
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Re: Start of Yerm Lunar Calendar

Irv Bromberg
In reply to this post by Karl Palmen
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] on behalf of Karl Palmen [[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2018 07:57

My yerm calendar article https://www.hermetic.ch/cal_stud/palmen/yerm1.htm

makes no mention of an epoch for the calendar. The calendar is intended to be a cyclic calendar used for any time that it is accurate and so does not have a start, only the start of a cycle (present cycle chosen). For calendar conversion, it is useful to number the cycles and chose the numbering so that cycle 1 begins near the Hijri.


16(17(23

PS: Yerm 17 begins on the 17th at noon local time.



Irv replies: When one tells Kalendis to use the Yerm Lunar Calendar (by choosing, if necessary, the last item on the "Options" menu that says "Revert to Fixed 52-Yerm Cycle" (this is the default setting anyway), then navigate to today, then the Lunar window shows the YLC date as of midnight. If the user puts ".5" beside the Fixed Day Number to force it to noon (or later) then the date agrees with Karl's current date as quoted above. If the user clicks on the YLC date and then pastes it into a text application, such as this email message, then this is what comes from the clipboard:

Yerm Lunar Calendar date as cc-yy(mm(dd: 21-16(17(23

So the date part is the same as Karl's, but he doesn't bother to specify the cycle number when he quotes YLC dates, as explained in his message snippet quoted above. In the example for today quoted above, the cycle number in Kalendis is 21.

Since Kalendis is specifically designed to perform calendar conversions, I had to implement yerm cycle numbers and choose an appropriate epoch. The date 1-01(01(01 started on Julian May 16, 622 AD at Noon, whereas the date 0-01(01(01 started on Julian August 25, 553 AD at Noon. The epoch of the Islamic calendar is normally given as 622 AD, so clearly the former is the epoch, not the latter. If one picks the "Previous" -- "Yerm Lunar Cycle" command then the cycle number will go negative, and so on, although I doubt that anybody particularly cares about zero or negative cycle numbers.

-- Irv Bromberg, University of Toronto, Canada


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Re: Start of Yerm Lunar Calendar

Irv Bromberg
In reply to this post by Ryan
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] on behalf of Ryan Provost [[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2018 18:46

I was looking into the Kalendis app on PC and determined the start of YLC so I went zooming through the dates in the past and determined that the start of said calendar as 00-01(01(01 was on August 28, 553 AD Gregorian/August 26, 553 AD Julian


Is that a true epoch (aka start) of Yerm Lunar Calendar? However new Yerm (Cycle 21 Yerm 17) occurs 01/18/2018 Thu (Assumingly Yerm count number 1109 [52*21+17 = 1109])



Ryan:

As explained in my previous message, you went back one YLC cycle too far.
The YLC epoch is at 1-01(01(01, which is Julian May 16, 622 AD at Noon.
I quote the date in the Julian calendar because that epoch is proleptic for the Gregorian.

By the way, the quick way to navigate through the YLC cycles is to use the "Next" and "Previous" menus, which have a "Yerm Lunar Calendar Cycle" entry, and to go from yerm-to-yerm use the "Yerm" entry on those menus. These commands will also automatically make the Fixed Day Number have a .5 decimal fraction so that it conveniently refers to the Noon at which the YLC date starts.

-- Irv Bromberg, University of Toronto, Canada


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Re: Start of Yerm Lunar Calendar

Ryan

1: Thanks for the tip!

2: Must’ve went too far back by nearly 70 years. D’oh! Didn’t realise it start at cycle 1 not cycle 0.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List <[hidden email]> on behalf of Irv Bromberg <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 9, 2018 4:24:41 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Start of Yerm Lunar Calendar
 
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] on behalf of Ryan Provost [[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2018 18:46

I was looking into the Kalendis app on PC and determined the start of YLC so I went zooming through the dates in the past and determined that the start of said calendar as 00-01(01(01 was on August 28, 553 AD Gregorian/August 26, 553 AD Julian


Is that a true epoch (aka start) of Yerm Lunar Calendar? However new Yerm (Cycle 21 Yerm 17) occurs 01/18/2018 Thu (Assumingly Yerm count number 1109 [52*21+17 = 1109])



Ryan:

As explained in my previous message, you went back one YLC cycle too far.
The YLC epoch is at 1-01(01(01, which is Julian May 16, 622 AD at Noon.
I quote the date in the Julian calendar because that epoch is proleptic for the Gregorian.

By the way, the quick way to navigate through the YLC cycles is to use the "Next" and "Previous" menus, which have a "Yerm Lunar Calendar Cycle" entry, and to go from yerm-to-yerm use the "Yerm" entry on those menus. These commands will also automatically make the Fixed Day Number have a .5 decimal fraction so that it conveniently refers to the Noon at which the YLC date starts.

-- Irv Bromberg, University of Toronto, Canada