Re: Confusion Re: Patterns Re: Short & simple Re: (235+6Adhika) Re: ...

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Re: Confusion Re: Patterns Re: Short & simple Re: (235+6Adhika) Re: ...

Karl Palmen
Dear  Brij and Calendar People

I was confused too. Brij said:
" six moons are added but ONCE every 3 years". That is equivalent to adding two moons every year and so adding 38 NOT 6 moons to each 19-year cycle.

Now I think Brij really means:
" six moons are added ONE MOON every 3 years within each 19-year cycle. These could be added to the 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th and 18th year of each 19-year cycle.

Brij later attempts to count the years:
"5541 moons over 23 19-year cycles i.e. (23*241)-2 moons smoothly distributed in [19*23.578947367]-years or (437*11)-years."
I don't understand this. Where does the 23.578947367 come from?
Also 437*11 = 4807 years!

If each of the six moons were actually added to a year, then there would be 23*19 = 437 years in the 448-year cycle, which is 11 years too few!

Why not instead take the 6*23 = 138 moons added to the 23 Metonic cycles and put them into the 11 missing years and remove the 2 surplus moons to leave 136 moons. Then we have 11 years with 4 leap months (136 - 11*12 = 4). This is the same as a 24th Metonic cycle with an Octaeteris removed as I suggested earlier.


Karl

16(08(07


-----Original Message-----
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Brij Bhushan metric VIJ
Sent: 01 April 2017 03:39
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Confusion Re: Patterns Re: Short & simple Re: (235+6Adhika) Re: 13th removed from all but 1 in 13 months RE: FORMAT Fwd: ...

Karl, sirs:
>Brij's suggestion is to add 6 months to >each of 23 19-year cycles then remove 2 >months. Only the months tally
>Months: 23*(235+6) - 2 = 5541
I think, this is yet another, confusion!
The point I made was for {23*(235+6)-2= 5541} Lunations to be counted. Since 19-years have 235 moons; six moons are added but ONCE every 3 years - thus making for 23x241=5543 and TWO removed once at [12*241]-1; and then at [11*241]-1 creating uniform distribution of {2892+2651}
=5541 moons; on adding ONE once every 3-years in 19-year cycle of (235+6) moons!
This make {[12*(235+6)-1}+{(11*235+6)-1}=
5541 moons over 23 19-year cycles i.e. (23*241)-2 moons smoothly distributed in [19*23.578947367]-years or (437*11)-years.
I expect this make distribution clear, sir.
Regards,
Brij Bhushan metric VIJ, Author
Brij-Gregorian Modified calendar
Friday, 2017 March 31H19:59 (decimal)

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 31, 2017, at 8:32 AM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Dear Brij and Calendar People
>
> Brij says that has target is the Mean Year and Mean Month, therefore BOTH years and months must be counted.
>
> One moon removed from (235+6) in 19-year cycle etc. does NOT count YEARS.
> Also, this has no pattern of YEARS with leap months, because the YEARS are not counted.
>
> Karl
>
> 16(08(04
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Brij Bhushan metric VIJ
> Sent: 31 March 2017 15:19
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Patterns Re: Short & simple Re: (235+6Adhika) Re: 13th removed from all but 1 in 13 months RE: FORMAT Fwd: ...
>
> Karl, list sirs:
>> Also if the years with a leap month were >spread as smoothly as possible, they will >naturally form a pattern of 24 19-year >cycles one of which have an Octaeteris >removed.
> I thank you. I, however, leave the choice to astronomers - the need of pattern-importance. My target was for Mean Year & Mean Lunation.
> One moon removed from (235+6) in 19-year cycle; once every 3-years also is uniform distribution, I suppose sir.
> Regards & thanks,
> Brij zbhushan metric VIJ, Author
> Brij-Gregorian Modified calendar
> Friday, 2017 March 31H07:31 (decimal)
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Mar 31, 2017, at 5:23 AM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Also if the years with a leap month were spread as smoothly as possible, they will naturally form a pattern of 24 19-year cycles one of which have an Octaeteris removed.
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Re: Confusion Re: Patterns Re: Short & simple Re: (235+6Adhika) Re: ...

Brij Bhushan metric VIJ
Karl,list sirs:
>I don't understand this. Where does the >23.578947367 come from?
>Also 437*11 = 4807 years!
It is unfortunate, I have thick fingers; which occasionally cause the slips.
448-years are (448/19=23.578947367 Nineteen (19)-year cycles! And, 437+11=448-years [and not 437*11 - my finger problem, possibly].
Now moon count: [(12x19-years)+(11x19-years)+(0.578947367x19-years)]=228+209+11 make up the 448-years/ having 5541 moons. The two moons removed are from the additional moons - one each at end of 12th nineteen years & the other at end of 11th nineteenth year cycle.
Each 19-year cycle has 235 moons (12x19 plus one each during 3rd, 5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th & 19th years i.e. Making 228+7=235 moons per 19-years.
I further ADD 6-moons during 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th & 16th years i.e. Once every 3-years. Thus making a total of 235+6=241 per 19-years. In 23.578947367 nineteen(19) -Year cycles (on deleting 2 as suggested), we have the total 5543 - 2=5541 moons in 448-years. There must've been other combinations, I do. It deny, sir! I think this to be simpler scheme. I have heard of ADHIK (added) moons in Hindu calendars. These are considered auspicious/ good for festivities also. But, I have no idea of their rules. My point was their co-ordination with moons & years exist! These are 23-cycles of 19-years PLUS 11-years catering to 448-years/5541 Lunation resulting in the right Mean Year value, I provided, in my previous posts. I expect this to be in order, sir.
It is likely this or such an arrangement was in use by Harappan culture, but Harappa calendar so far is a mystery.
Regards,
Brij Bhushan metric VIJ, Author
Brij-Gregorian Modified calendar
Monday, 2017 April 02H22:21 (decimal)





Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 3, 2017, at 8:24 AM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I don't understand this. Where does the 23.578947367 come from?
> Also 437*11 = 4807 years!
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Re: Confusion Re: Patterns Re: Short & simple Re: (235+6Adhika) Re: ...

Karl Palmen
Dear Brij and Calendar People

Brij describes a calendar and according to the description of the calendar, it has 5541 moons in 437 years.
Brij assumes it has 448 years before 'counting' them.

I don't think Brij has a clear idea what a year is in the calendar he has suggested.

-----Original Message-----
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Brij Bhushan metric VIJ
Sent: 04 April 2017 06:13
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Confusion Re: Patterns Re: Short & simple Re: (235+6Adhika) Re: ...

Karl,list sirs:
>I don't understand this. Where does the >23.578947367 come from?
>Also 437*11 = 4807 years!
It is unfortunate, I have thick fingers; which occasionally cause the slips.
448-years are (448/19=23.578947367 Nineteen (19)-year cycles! And, 437+11=448-years [and not 437*11 - my finger problem, possibly].
Now moon count: [(12x19-years)+(11x19-years)+(0.578947367x19-years)]=228+209+11 make up the 448-years/ having 5541 moons.

KARL REPLIES: Thank you for Brij for explaining this.
But this is NOT a COUNT of the years, because the result of the count (448) is assumed beforehand to work out the 23.578947367 and the 11.


BRIJ CONTINUES WITH A DESCRIPTION OF THE CALENDAR:
 The two moons removed are from the additional moons - one each at end of 12th nineteen years & the other at end of 11th nineteenth year cycle.
Each 19-year cycle has 235 moons (12x19 plus one each during 3rd, 5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th & 19th years i.e. Making 228+7=235 moons per 19-years.
I further ADD 6-moons during 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th & 16th years i.e. Once every 3-years.

BRIJ THEN MAKES A CONCLUSION:
Thus making a total of 235+6=241 per 19-years. In 23.578947367 nineteen(19) -Year cycles (on deleting 2 as suggested), we have the total 5543 - 2=5541 moons in 448-years.

KARL REPLIES: But we have exactly 23 (not 23.578946367) 19-year cycles and so 437 years.
This makes the mean year about 5541/437 = 12.6796... moons and so about 374.437... days.
I don't see any mention of a (0.578946367) 19-year cycle of 11 years in the description.

I can now guess the missing part of the description:
"The resulting 23 19-year cycles are followed by 11 years with no moons making 11/19 = 0.578946367 of a 19-year cycle."
If this were added to the description, the conclusion following it would be correct.


BRIJ CONTINUES:
There must've been other combinations, I do. It deny, sir! I think this to be simpler scheme. I have heard of ADHIK (added) moons in Hindu calendars. These are considered auspicious/ good for festivities also. But, I have no idea of their rules. My point was their co-ordination with moons & years exist! These are 23-cycles of 19-years PLUS 11-years catering to 448-years/5541 Lunation resulting in the right Mean Year value, I provided, in my previous posts. I expect this to be in order, sir.
It is likely this or such an arrangement was in use by Harappan culture, but Harappa calendar so far is a mystery.

KARL REPLIES: I don't know much about Hindu calendars, but I found out that the ADHIK months are simply the leap months added to a year of 12 months or rarely 11 months.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adhik_Maas 
 
Also I don't think Brij's suggestion is simpler than my suggestion of adding 11 years of 136 moons. These 11 years can be the same as the first 11 years of a 19-year cycle.
Years: 23*19 + 11 = 448
Moons: 23*235 + 136 = 5541.
Also my suggestion is flexible. 23 does not have to be the number of 19-year cycles one adds the 11 years to. For more accuracy, a number less than 23 is needed, for example 17 which leads to
Years: 17*19 + 11 = 334
Moons: 17*235 + 136 = 4131.

What I do know about the Hindu calendar is that the name of each lunar month is defined by which sign of the Hindu sidereal zodiac the sun enters in that month. Sometimes a lunar month occurs in which the sun does not enter a sign of the zodiac. Such a month is an ADHIK month. This is mentioned in the link I gave to Adhik Maas. I'd expect the resulting years of 13 months would follow a pattern similar to what I suggested of 19-year cycles occasionally cut to 11 years.

Also I'm curious about why Brij chose the 3rd, 5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th & 19th years, even though the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th & 19th years as used in the Hebrew calendar would work and unlike Brij's 7 years are spaced as smoothly as possible. Perhaps, it was another slip of the thick fingers.

Karl

16(08(08

Tuesday Ace of Diamonds, ISO-week deck


Regards,
Brij Bhushan metric VIJ, Author
Brij-Gregorian Modified calendar
Monday, 2017 April 02H22:21 (decimal)





Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 3, 2017, at 8:24 AM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I don't understand this. Where does the 23.578947367 come from?
> Also 437*11 = 4807 years!
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Jumbled jig-saw Re: Confusion Re: Patterns Re: Short & simple Re: (235+6Adhika) Re: ...

Brij Bhushan metric VIJ
Karl, list sirs:
>I can now guess the missing part of the description:
>"The resulting 23 19-year cycles are >followed by 11 years with no moons making ><a href="x-apple-data-detectors://5" dir="ltr" x-apple-data-detectors="true" x-apple-data-detectors-type="calendar-event" x-apple-data-detectors-result="5" style="-webkit-text-decoration-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.258824);">11/19 = 0.578946367 of a 19-year cycle."
>If this were added to the description, the >conclusion following it would be correct.
I thank you, Karl for 'explaining the jumbled jig-saw, with your Astro-mathematical expertise'. I have only tried to use the exactness of 19-year Harappa cycle, I believed, could be used counting (437+11)-years to count 5541-moons in (896/2=448-years). 
19-year cycle, as you know, may have 235-moons/6932 1/2 Tithi; each Tithi of 1 338/326919 day in my 896-years with Mean Year=365.2421875 days; and (with an EXTRA tithi) getting Mean Lunation=(327257
+1) days/326919 Tithi=29d 12h 44m 2s.9887. Be kind to reconcile that 896-year cycle is a complete lunisolar cycle!
Regards,
Brij Bhushan metric VIJ, Author
Brij-Gregorian Midified calendar 
Tuesday, 2017 April 04H09:94 (decimal)

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 4, 2017, at 5:40 AM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

I can now guess the missing part of the description:
"The resulting 23 19-year cycles are followed by 11 years with no moons making 11/19 = 0.578946367 of a 19-year cycle."
If this were added to the description, the conclusion following it would be correct.
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Re: 448-yes/5541 moons Re: Jumbled jig-saw Re: Confusion Re: Patterns Re: Short & simple Re: (235+6Adhika) Re: ...

Brij Bhushan metric VIJ
Resending this mail, returned by server since from my [hidden email] account.
Brij Bhushan metric VIJ
Tuesday, 2017 April 04H13:51 (decimal)
Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 4, 2017, at 1:25 PM, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Karl, list sirs:
On further thinking, I would suggest to use a combination of 448-years=(334-years+6 cycles of 19-years); this is (4131+6x235) =5541 moons, satisfying the required lunar moons in 448-years. NO adhik or deficient moons [of 11/19- nineteen Year cycle] aiming to get Mean Lunation =(896-yrs+1 Tithi)/ No.of Tithi in (11082x29 1/2) moons =29d 12h 44m 2s.9887 possibly closest to current value of Lunation, as discussed earlier, sir!
896-years have 2 cycles of 334-years; with 12 cycles of 19 years (8362+2820=11082 moons).
To day is Ram Navami , a revered day for Lord Rama- also a day to remember my late father who was dedicated to HIM. 
Regards,
Brij Bhushan metric VIJ, Author
Brij-Gregorian Mofified calendar
Tuesday, 2017 April 04H13:41 (decimal)

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 4, 2017, at 9:57 AM, Brij Bhushan metric VIJ <[hidden email]> wrote:

Karl, list sirs:
>I can now guess the missing part of the description:
>"The resulting 23 19-year cycles are >followed by 11 years with no moons making ><a href="x-apple-data-detectors://5" dir="ltr" x-apple-data-detectors="true" x-apple-data-detectors-type="calendar-event" x-apple-data-detectors-result="5" style="-webkit-text-decoration-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.258824);">11/19 = 0.578946367 of a 19-year cycle."
>If this were added to the description, the >conclusion following it would be correct.
I thank you, Karl for 'explaining the jumbled jig-saw, with your Astro-mathematical expertise'. I have only tried to use the exactness of 19-year Harappa cycle, I believed, could be used counting (437+11)-years to count 5541-moons in (896/2=448-years). 
19-year cycle, as you know, may have 235-moons/6932 1/2 Tithi; each Tithi of 1 338/326919 day in my 896-years with Mean Year=365.2421875 days; and (with an EXTRA tithi) getting Mean Lunation=(327257
+1) days/326919 Tithi=29d 12h 44m 2s.9887. Be kind to reconcile that 896-year cycle is a complete lunisolar cycle!
Regards,
Brij Bhushan metric VIJ, Author
Brij-Gregorian Midified calendar 
Tuesday, 2017 April 04H09:94 (decimal)

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 4, 2017, at 5:40 AM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

I can now guess the missing part of the description:
"The resulting 23 19-year cycles are followed by 11 years with no moons making 11/19 = 0.578946367 of a 19-year cycle."
If this were added to the description, the conclusion following it would be correct.
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