Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
4 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

Karl Palmen

Dear Aristeo and Calendar People

 

The table in the link is confusing. It seems to say that the Hebrew calendar was purely lunar till the Babylonians conquered Jerusalem is 637 BC then it was both pure lunar and lunisolar till the reform of AD 538/359 then it was just lunisolar. Also it says that the calendar was never a pure solar calendar.

 

What I find confusing is how can the calendar be both pure lunar and lunisolar at the same time (637 BC to AD 538).

How can it both have and not have leap months?

Were two different calendars in use at that time?

 

Karl

 

16(01(28

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Aristeo Fernando
Sent: 29 September 2016 04:47
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

 

Dear Karl and Calendar People,

Thank you for your recollection of the Jewish calendar.  Please refer to http://aristean.org/wp119.htm .

.
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spiri
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."

 


From: Karl Palmen <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2016 10:19 PM
Subject: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

 

Dear Irv, Peter, Amos, Robert and Calendar People

 

I recall Aristeo mentioning his idea that the Hebrew Calendar was at some time a pure lunar calendar.

 

I’ve found out that some scholars believe that 5the calendar that preceded the Islamic calendar was always pure lunar and the Nasi’ banned by Islam was not a leap month, but the moving of a forbidden month to a convenient time of the year.

 

Other scholars think that  that the leap month took the form of doubling one month and each of the 12 months was in turn doubled.

 

 

 

I was also aware that Walter’s 34-33-34-33-34-33-34 would not get  every one of the 12 regular months followed by a leap month until the first correction of the 19-year cycle. The shortest such period must have between 33 and 34 years and to be accurate must have 33 years and 7 regular months. This would have seven 34s and five 33s. Twelve of these would from a 391-year cycle with 144 leap months.  If the 33s and 34s were spread as smoothly as possible:

 

34-33-34-33-34-33-34, 34-33-34-33-34 the months preceding the leap months would be 01, 10, 06, 03, 11, 08, 04, 01, 10, 06, 03, 11 for the first cycle so not all 12 months would have a leap month after it in the first 12 leap years, but this would equal out over a whole 391-year cycle of 144 leap months.

 

So as a curiosity and a puzzle, what is the smoothest distribution of seven 34s and five 33s that ensures every one of the 12 regular months gets a leap month after it once in a single cycle. I at present don’t have an answer, but have thought of a way of finding one.

                                                                                               

 

If the intervals were 38s and 26s instead of 34s and 33s, each month would automatically in turn be the month before a leap month (or doubled to form a leap month) in the order they occur in the years as in the intercalation scheme mentioned in the Nasi’ wiki page linked above.

 

This appears to be achievable by fixing the leap years to a 19-year cycle and allowing the leap months to progress one month later in each leap year till the end, then go back to the start of the next leap year. However the leap year would eventually go back to the start of a leap year two years later, so creating an interval of 14 months instead of 26 or 38 months. This could be fixed by postponing the leap year by one year on such an occasion. Then one would get two consecutive 26s, which would not normally occur.

 

Karl

 

16(01(27

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Peter Zilahy Ingerman, PhD
Sent: 27 September 2016 22:09
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

 

I agree with Irv. I have  added Aristeo to my "junk" list; I do not believe he as ANYTHING to offer.

Peeter

 

On 2016-09-27 14:06, Irv Bromberg wrote:

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] on behalf of Aristeo Fernando [[hidden email]]

Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 01:55

You, Irv, are another one fooled by the reformation of the Jewish calendars in 358 AD. 


When was the Feast of the Dedication held?  What is the name of the Feast in the Jewish language?

[The comma was added after the first "3" in the subject line by Aristeo, apparently by mistake.]

Irv replies: It is Hanukkah, which is an 8-day festival (not a "feast") which starts on the 25th of Kislev and is of rabbinic origin (not mentioned in the Torah) observed since the ancient Greeks were driven out of the Holy Land by the Maccabees. [It so happens that this year this Hanukkah starts on Christmas Day, but that is unusually late, and has no particular significance.]


The Feast of the Dedication was held on the 15th of the seventh month in the religious purely lunar calendar.  It says on John 10:22 of the Holy Bible that it was winter.  It was held on 3760 Shevat 15 in the Jewish calendar, or 1 BC 01-27, a winter day.

Irv replies: The seventh month is Tishrei, as specified in the Torah. The 15th of Tishrei is the first day of the festival of Sukkot, also as specified in the Torah. I believe that Aristeo is confusing multiple Hebrew calendar events, but I have no idea why, nor do I care. The Hebrew calendar was never purely lunar. I think that I've endured enough of this ranting, and won't bother responding any further.

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4664/13096 - Release Date: 09/27/16

 

 

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

Amos Shapir-2
Hi Karl and calendar people,

The verse Aristeo quotes in this document is the one in which Moses orders the Israelites to celebrate Passover in spring time; that means that whatever calendar was used at the time, it had to follow the seasons -- either a purely solar one, or luni-solar.

How Aristeo can use that very verse to reach a diametrically opposite conclusion -- that the calendar was purely lunar and was drifting around the seasons -- is probably beyond human comprehension.

Amos.

On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Aristeo and Calendar People

 

The table in the link is confusing. It seems to say that the Hebrew calendar was purely lunar till the Babylonians conquered Jerusalem is 637 BC then it was both pure lunar and lunisolar till the reform of AD 538/359 then it was just lunisolar. Also it says that the calendar was never a pure solar calendar.

 

What I find confusing is how can the calendar be both pure lunar and lunisolar at the same time (637 BC to AD 538).

How can it both have and not have leap months?

Were two different calendars in use at that time?

 

Karl

 

16(01(28

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Aristeo Fernando
Sent: 29 September 2016 04:47
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

 

Dear Karl and Calendar People,

Thank you for your recollection of the Jewish calendar.  Please refer to http://aristean.org/wp119.htm .

.
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spiri
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."

 

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

Aristeo Fernando-3
In reply to this post by Karl Palmen
Dear Karl and Calendar People,

This came from Encyclopaedia Britannica, Volume 15, page 465:
"After the conquest of Jerusalem (587 BC), the Babylonians introduced their cyclic calendar (see above Babylonian calendars) and the reckoning of their regnal years from Nisanu 1, about the spring equinox.  The Jews now had a finite calendar year with a New Year's day, and they adopted the Babylonian month names, which they continue to use."

Egypt had at least two kinds of calendars from where the children of Israel came out: a solar calendar with 365 days per year for civil usage, and a lunar calendar for religious usage.  The Jews cannot use the solar calendar because they are faraway from the Nile River.  They adopted the lunar calendar because the festivals were religious in nature and the moon was unobstructed in the Sinai Peninsula.

For 480 years, their reckoning was their Exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1).  How come that their epoch now is anno mundi?
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."



From: Karl Palmen <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2016 10:27 PM
Subject: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

Dear Aristeo and Calendar People
 
The table in the link is confusing. It seems to say that the Hebrew calendar was purely lunar till the Babylonians conquered Jerusalem is 637 BC then it was both pure lunar and lunisolar till the reform of AD 538/359 then it was just lunisolar. Also it says that the calendar was never a pure solar calendar.
 
What I find confusing is how can the calendar be both pure lunar and lunisolar at the same time (637 BC to AD 538).
How can it both have and not have leap months?
Were two different calendars in use at that time?
 
Karl
 
16(01(28
 
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Aristeo Fernando
Sent: 29 September 2016 04:47
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2
 
Dear Karl and Calendar People,

Thank you for your recollection of the Jewish calendar.  Please refer to http://aristean.org/wp119.htm .
.
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spiri
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."
 

From: Karl Palmen <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2016 10:19 PM
Subject: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2
 
Dear Irv, Peter, Amos, Robert and Calendar People
 
I recall Aristeo mentioning his idea that the Hebrew Calendar was at some time a pure lunar calendar.
 
I’ve found out that some scholars believe that 5the calendar that preceded the Islamic calendar was always pure lunar and the Nasi’ banned by Islam was not a leap month, but the moving of a forbidden month to a convenient time of the year.
 
Other scholars think that  that the leap month took the form of doubling one month and each of the 12 months was in turn doubled.
 
 
 
I was also aware that Walter’s 34-33-34-33-34-33-34 would not get  every one of the 12 regular months followed by a leap month until the first correction of the 19-year cycle. The shortest such period must have between 33 and 34 years and to be accurate must have 33 years and 7 regular months. This would have seven 34s and five 33s. Twelve of these would from a 391-year cycle with 144 leap months.  If the 33s and 34s were spread as smoothly as possible:
 
34-33-34-33-34-33-34, 34-33-34-33-34 the months preceding the leap months would be 01, 10, 06, 03, 11, 08, 04, 01, 10, 06, 03, 11 for the first cycle so not all 12 months would have a leap month after it in the first 12 leap years, but this would equal out over a whole 391-year cycle of 144 leap months.
 
So as a curiosity and a puzzle, what is the smoothest distribution of seven 34s and five 33s that ensures every one of the 12 regular months gets a leap month after it once in a single cycle. I at present don’t have an answer, but have thought of a way of finding one.
                                                                                               
 
If the intervals were 38s and 26s instead of 34s and 33s, each month would automatically in turn be the month before a leap month (or doubled to form a leap month) in the order they occur in the years as in the intercalation scheme mentioned in the Nasi’ wiki page linked above.
 
This appears to be achievable by fixing the leap years to a 19-year cycle and allowing the leap months to progress one month later in each leap year till the end, then go back to the start of the next leap year. However the leap year would eventually go back to the start of a leap year two years later, so creating an interval of 14 months instead of 26 or 38 months. This could be fixed by postponing the leap year by one year on such an occasion. Then one would get two consecutive 26s, which would not normally occur.
 
Karl
 
16(01(27
 
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Peter Zilahy Ingerman, PhD
Sent: 27 September 2016 22:09
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2
 
I agree with Irv. I have  added Aristeo to my "junk" list; I do not believe he as ANYTHING to offer.
Peeter
 
On 2016-09-27 14:06, Irv Bromberg wrote:
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] on behalf of Aristeo Fernando [[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 01:55
You, Irv, are another one fooled by the reformation of the Jewish calendars in 358 AD. 

When was the Feast of the Dedication held?  What is the name of the Feast in the Jewish language?

[The comma was added after the first "3" in the subject line by Aristeo, apparently by mistake.]

Irv replies: It is Hanukkah, which is an 8-day festival (not a "feast") which starts on the 25th of Kislev and is of rabbinic origin (not mentioned in the Torah) observed since the ancient Greeks were driven out of the Holy Land by the Maccabees. [It so happens that this year this Hanukkah starts on Christmas Day, but that is unusually late, and has no particular significance.]

The Feast of the Dedication was held on the 15th of the seventh month in the religious purely lunar calendar.  It says on John 10:22 of the Holy Bible that it was winter.  It was held on 3760 Shevat 15 in the Jewish calendar, or 1 BC 01-27, a winter day.

Irv replies: The seventh month is Tishrei, as specified in the Torah. The 15th of Tishrei is the first day of the festival of Sukkot, also as specified in the Torah. I believe that Aristeo is confusing multiple Hebrew calendar events, but I have no idea why, nor do I care. The Hebrew calendar was never purely lunar. I think that I've endured enough of this ranting, and won't bother responding any further.
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4664/13096 - Release Date: 09/27/16
 
 


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

Karl Palmen

Dear Aristeo and Calendar People

 

This does not explain why both the lunisolar and lunar calendar columns in the table are both filled for a period of time.

 

What I find confusing is how can the calendar be both pure lunar and lunisolar at the same time (637 BC to AD 538).

How can it both have and not have leap months?

Were two different calendars in use at that time?

 

Karl

 

16(02(01 till noon

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Aristeo Fernando
Sent: 30 September 2016 19:09
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

 

Dear Karl and Calendar People,

This came from Encyclopaedia Britannica, Volume 15, page 465:
"After the conquest of Jerusalem (587 BC), the Babylonians introduced their cyclic calendar (see above Babylonian calendars) and the reckoning of their regnal years from Nisanu 1, about the spring equinox.  The Jews now had a finite calendar year with a New Year's day, and they adopted the Babylonian month names, which they continue to use."


Egypt had at least two kinds of calendars from where the children of Israel came out: a solar calendar with 365 days per year for civil usage, and a lunar calendar for religious usage.  The Jews cannot use the solar calendar because they are faraway from the Nile River.  They adopted the lunar calendar because the festivals were religious in nature and the moon was unobstructed in the Sinai Peninsula.


For 480 years, their reckoning was their Exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1).  How come that their epoch now is anno mundi?

Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."

 


From: Karl Palmen <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2016 10:27 PM
Subject: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

 

Dear Aristeo and Calendar People

 

The table in the link is confusing. It seems to say that the Hebrew calendar was purely lunar till the Babylonians conquered Jerusalem is 637 BC then it was both pure lunar and lunisolar till the reform of AD 538/359 then it was just lunisolar. Also it says that the calendar was never a pure solar calendar.

 

What I find confusing is how can the calendar be both pure lunar and lunisolar at the same time (637 BC to AD 538).

How can it both have and not have leap months?

Were two different calendars in use at that time?

 

Karl

 

16(01(28

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Aristeo Fernando
Sent: 29 September 2016 04:47
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

 

Dear Karl and Calendar People,

Thank you for your recollection of the Jewish calendar.  Please refer to http://aristean.org/wp119.htm .

.
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spiri
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."

 


From: Karl Palmen <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2016 10:19 PM
Subject: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

 

Dear Irv, Peter, Amos, Robert and Calendar People

 

I recall Aristeo mentioning his idea that the Hebrew Calendar was at some time a pure lunar calendar.

 

I’ve found out that some scholars believe that 5the calendar that preceded the Islamic calendar was always pure lunar and the Nasi’ banned by Islam was not a leap month, but the moving of a forbidden month to a convenient time of the year.

 

Other scholars think that  that the leap month took the form of doubling one month and each of the 12 months was in turn doubled.

 

 

 

I was also aware that Walter’s 34-33-34-33-34-33-34 would not get  every one of the 12 regular months followed by a leap month until the first correction of the 19-year cycle. The shortest such period must have between 33 and 34 years and to be accurate must have 33 years and 7 regular months. This would have seven 34s and five 33s. Twelve of these would from a 391-year cycle with 144 leap months.  If the 33s and 34s were spread as smoothly as possible:

 

34-33-34-33-34-33-34, 34-33-34-33-34 the months preceding the leap months would be 01, 10, 06, 03, 11, 08, 04, 01, 10, 06, 03, 11 for the first cycle so not all 12 months would have a leap month after it in the first 12 leap years, but this would equal out over a whole 391-year cycle of 144 leap months.

 

So as a curiosity and a puzzle, what is the smoothest distribution of seven 34s and five 33s that ensures every one of the 12 regular months gets a leap month after it once in a single cycle. I at present don’t have an answer, but have thought of a way of finding one.

                                                                                               

 

If the intervals were 38s and 26s instead of 34s and 33s, each month would automatically in turn be the month before a leap month (or doubled to form a leap month) in the order they occur in the years as in the intercalation scheme mentioned in the Nasi’ wiki page linked above.

 

This appears to be achievable by fixing the leap years to a 19-year cycle and allowing the leap months to progress one month later in each leap year till the end, then go back to the start of the next leap year. However the leap year would eventually go back to the start of a leap year two years later, so creating an interval of 14 months instead of 26 or 38 months. This could be fixed by postponing the leap year by one year on such an occasion. Then one would get two consecutive 26s, which would not normally occur.

 

Karl

 

16(01(27

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Peter Zilahy Ingerman, PhD
Sent: 27 September 2016 22:09
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

 

I agree with Irv. I have  added Aristeo to my "junk" list; I do not believe he as ANYTHING to offer.

Peeter

 

On 2016-09-27 14:06, Irv Bromberg wrote:

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] on behalf of Aristeo Fernando [[hidden email]]

Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 01:55

You, Irv, are another one fooled by the reformation of the Jewish calendars in 358 AD. 


When was the Feast of the Dedication held?  What is the name of the Feast in the Jewish language?

[The comma was added after the first "3" in the subject line by Aristeo, apparently by mistake.]

Irv replies: It is Hanukkah, which is an 8-day festival (not a "feast") which starts on the 25th of Kislev and is of rabbinic origin (not mentioned in the Torah) observed since the ancient Greeks were driven out of the Holy Land by the Maccabees. [It so happens that this year this Hanukkah starts on Christmas Day, but that is unusually late, and has no particular significance.]


The Feast of the Dedication was held on the 15th of the seventh month in the religious purely lunar calendar.  It says on John 10:22 of the Holy Bible that it was winter.  It was held on 3760 Shevat 15 in the Jewish calendar, or 1 BC 01-27, a winter day.

Irv replies: The seventh month is Tishrei, as specified in the Torah. The 15th of Tishrei is the first day of the festival of Sukkot, also as specified in the Torah. I believe that Aristeo is confusing multiple Hebrew calendar events, but I have no idea why, nor do I care. The Hebrew calendar was never purely lunar. I think that I've endured enough of this ranting, and won't bother responding any further.

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4664/13096 - Release Date: 09/27/16

 

 

 

Loading...