Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

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Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

Karl Palmen

Dear Irv, Peter, Amos, Robert and Calendar People

 

I recall Aristeo mentioning his idea that the Hebrew Calendar was at some time a pure lunar calendar.

 

I’ve found out that some scholars believe that 5the calendar that preceded the Islamic calendar was always pure lunar and the Nasi’ banned by Islam was not a leap month, but the moving of a forbidden month to a convenient time of the year.

 

Other scholars think that  that the leap month took the form of doubling one month and each of the 12 months was in turn doubled.

 

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasi%27 for more details.

 

 

I was also aware that Walter’s 34-33-34-33-34-33-34 would not get  every one of the 12 regular months followed by a leap month until the first correction of the 19-year cycle. The shortest such period must have between 33 and 34 years and to be accurate must have 33 years and 7 regular months. This would have seven 34s and five 33s. Twelve of these would from a 391-year cycle with 144 leap months.  If the 33s and 34s were spread as smoothly as possible:

 

34-33-34-33-34-33-34, 34-33-34-33-34 the months preceding the leap months would be 01, 10, 06, 03, 11, 08, 04, 01, 10, 06, 03, 11 for the first cycle so not all 12 months would have a leap month after it in the first 12 leap years, but this would equal out over a whole 391-year cycle of 144 leap months.

 

So as a curiosity and a puzzle, what is the smoothest distribution of seven 34s and five 33s that ensures every one of the 12 regular months gets a leap month after it once in a single cycle. I at present don’t have an answer, but have thought of a way of finding one.

                                                                                               

 

If the intervals were 38s and 26s instead of 34s and 33s, each month would automatically in turn be the month before a leap month (or doubled to form a leap month) in the order they occur in the years as in the intercalation scheme mentioned in the Nasi’ wiki page linked above.

 

This appears to be achievable by fixing the leap years to a 19-year cycle and allowing the leap months to progress one month later in each leap year till the end, then go back to the start of the next leap year. However the leap year would eventually go back to the start of a leap year two years later, so creating an interval of 14 months instead of 26 or 38 months. This could be fixed by postponing the leap year by one year on such an occasion. Then one would get two consecutive 26s, which would not normally occur.

 

Karl

 

16(01(27

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Peter Zilahy Ingerman, PhD
Sent: 27 September 2016 22:09
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

 

I agree with Irv. I have  added Aristeo to my "junk" list; I do not believe he as ANYTHING to offer.

Peeter

 

On 2016-09-27 14:06, Irv Bromberg wrote:

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] on behalf of Aristeo Fernando [[hidden email]]

Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 01:55

You, Irv, are another one fooled by the reformation of the Jewish calendars in 358 AD. 


When was the Feast of the Dedication held?  What is the name of the Feast in the Jewish language?

[The comma was added after the first "3" in the subject line by Aristeo, apparently by mistake.]

Irv replies: It is Hanukkah, which is an 8-day festival (not a "feast") which starts on the 25th of Kislev and is of rabbinic origin (not mentioned in the Torah) observed since the ancient Greeks were driven out of the Holy Land by the Maccabees. [It so happens that this year this Hanukkah starts on Christmas Day, but that is unusually late, and has no particular significance.]


The Feast of the Dedication was held on the 15th of the seventh month in the religious purely lunar calendar.  It says on John 10:22 of the Holy Bible that it was winter.  It was held on 3760 Shevat 15 in the Jewish calendar, or 1 BC 01-27, a winter day.

Irv replies: The seventh month is Tishrei, as specified in the Torah. The 15th of Tishrei is the first day of the festival of Sukkot, also as specified in the Torah. I believe that Aristeo is confusing multiple Hebrew calendar events, but I have no idea why, nor do I care. The Hebrew calendar was never purely lunar. I think that I've endured enough of this ranting, and won't bother responding any further.

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Re: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

Walter J Ziobro

Dear Karl

I have heard something similar but I don't believe it

I think that the ban was expressly on the intercalary month because Mohammed didn't like Muslims being confused about which month should be Ramadan  In his mind it was simpler to just count 12 months from Ramadan to Ramadan than come up with a complicated leap month rule

In fact I think that there were actually 3 leap months added to the first 10 years before Mohammed banned them I think that the true first month of the Islamic Era was actually 3 months prior to the July date that Is usually cited. in April and that the pre Islamic Arab calendar was luni solar commencing in early spring This would mean that Ramadan would usually occur around December in the pre Islamic calendar This gives meaning to the Islamic belief that the Koran was first revealed to Mohammed in Ramadan on the Night of Nights which most probably refers to the Nortern Winter Solstice
Walter Ziobro

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail




On Wednesday, September 28, 2016 Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Irv, Peter, Amos, Robert and Calendar People

 

I recall Aristeo mentioning his idea that the Hebrew Calendar was at some time a pure lunar calendar.

 

I’ve found out that some scholars believe that 5the calendar that preceded the Islamic calendar was always pure lunar and the Nasi’ banned by Islam was not a leap month, but the moving of a forbidden month to a convenient time of the year.

 

Other scholars think that  that the leap month took the form of doubling one month and each of the 12 months was in turn doubled.

 

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasi%27 for more details.

 

 

I was also aware that Walter’s 34-33-34-33-34-33-34 would not get  every one of the 12 regular months followed by a leap month until the first correction of the 19-year cycle. The shortest such period must have between 33 and 34 years and to be accurate must have 33 years and 7 regular months. This would have seven 34s and five 33s. Twelve of these would from a 391-year cycle with 144 leap months.  If the 33s and 34s were spread as smoothly as possible:

 

34-33-34-33-34-33-34, 34-33-34-33-34 the months preceding the leap months would be 01, 10, 06, 03, 11, 08, 04, 01, 10, 06, 03, 11 for the first cycle so not all 12 months would have a leap month after it in the first 12 leap years, but this would equal out over a whole 391-year cycle of 144 leap months.

 

So as a curiosity and a puzzle, what is the smoothest distribution of seven 34s and five 33s that ensures every one of the 12 regular months gets a leap month after it once in a single cycle. I at present don’t have an answer, but have thought of a way of finding one.

                                                                                               

 

If the intervals were 38s and 26s instead of 34s and 33s, each month would automatically in turn be the month before a leap month (or doubled to form a leap month) in the order they occur in the years as in the intercalation scheme mentioned in the Nasi’ wiki page linked above.

 

This appears to be achievable by fixing the leap years to a 19-year cycle and allowing the leap months to progress one month later in each leap year till the end, then go back to the start of the next leap year. However the leap year would eventually go back to the start of a leap year two years later, so creating an interval of 14 months instead of 26 or 38 months. This could be fixed by postponing the leap year by one year on such an occasion. Then one would get two consecutive 26s, which would not normally occur.

 

Karl

 

16(01(27

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:CALNDR-L@...] On Behalf Of Peter Zilahy Ingerman, PhD
Sent: 27 September 2016 22:09
To: CALNDR-L@...
Subject: Re: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

 

I agree with Irv. I have  added Aristeo to my "junk" list; I do not believe he as ANYTHING to offer.

Peeter

 

On 2016-09-27 14:06, Irv Bromberg wrote:

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] on behalf of Aristeo Fernando [[hidden email]]

Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 01:55

You, Irv, are another one fooled by the reformation of the Jewish calendars in 358 AD. 


When was the Feast of the Dedication held?  What is the name of the Feast in the Jewish language?

[The comma was added after the first "3" in the subject line by Aristeo, apparently by mistake.]

Irv replies: It is Hanukkah, which is an 8-day festival (not a "feast") which starts on the 25th of Kislev and is of rabbinic origin (not mentioned in the Torah) observed since the ancient Greeks were driven out of the Holy Land by the Maccabees. [It so happens that this year this Hanukkah starts on Christmas Day, but that is unusually late, and has no particular significance.]


The Feast of the Dedication was held on the 15th of the seventh month in the religious purely lunar calendar.  It says on John 10:22 of the Holy Bible that it was winter.  It was held on 3760 Shevat 15 in the Jewish calendar, or 1 BC 01-27, a winter day.

Irv replies: The seventh month is Tishrei, as specified in the Torah. The 15th of Tishrei is the first day of the festival of Sukkot, also as specified in the Torah. I believe that Aristeo is confusing multiple Hebrew calendar events, but I have no idea why, nor do I care. The Hebrew calendar was never purely lunar. I think that I've endured enough of this ranting, and won't bother responding any further.

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4664/13096 - Release Date: 09/27/16

 

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Re: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

Aristeo Fernando-3
In reply to this post by Karl Palmen
Dear Karl and Calendar People,

Thank you for your recollection of the Jewish calendar.  Please refer to http://aristean.org/wp119.htm .
.
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spiri
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."



From: Karl Palmen <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2016 10:19 PM
Subject: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

Dear Irv, Peter, Amos, Robert and Calendar People
 
I recall Aristeo mentioning his idea that the Hebrew Calendar was at some time a pure lunar calendar.
 
I’ve found out that some scholars believe that 5the calendar that preceded the Islamic calendar was always pure lunar and the Nasi’ banned by Islam was not a leap month, but the moving of a forbidden month to a convenient time of the year.
 
Other scholars think that  that the leap month took the form of doubling one month and each of the 12 months was in turn doubled.
 
 
 
I was also aware that Walter’s 34-33-34-33-34-33-34 would not get  every one of the 12 regular months followed by a leap month until the first correction of the 19-year cycle. The shortest such period must have between 33 and 34 years and to be accurate must have 33 years and 7 regular months. This would have seven 34s and five 33s. Twelve of these would from a 391-year cycle with 144 leap months.  If the 33s and 34s were spread as smoothly as possible:
 
34-33-34-33-34-33-34, 34-33-34-33-34 the months preceding the leap months would be 01, 10, 06, 03, 11, 08, 04, 01, 10, 06, 03, 11 for the first cycle so not all 12 months would have a leap month after it in the first 12 leap years, but this would equal out over a whole 391-year cycle of 144 leap months.
 
So as a curiosity and a puzzle, what is the smoothest distribution of seven 34s and five 33s that ensures every one of the 12 regular months gets a leap month after it once in a single cycle. I at present don’t have an answer, but have thought of a way of finding one.
                                                                                               
 
If the intervals were 38s and 26s instead of 34s and 33s, each month would automatically in turn be the month before a leap month (or doubled to form a leap month) in the order they occur in the years as in the intercalation scheme mentioned in the Nasi’ wiki page linked above.
 
This appears to be achievable by fixing the leap years to a 19-year cycle and allowing the leap months to progress one month later in each leap year till the end, then go back to the start of the next leap year. However the leap year would eventually go back to the start of a leap year two years later, so creating an interval of 14 months instead of 26 or 38 months. This could be fixed by postponing the leap year by one year on such an occasion. Then one would get two consecutive 26s, which would not normally occur.
 
Karl
 
16(01(27
 
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Peter Zilahy Ingerman, PhD
Sent: 27 September 2016 22:09
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2
 
I agree with Irv. I have  added Aristeo to my "junk" list; I do not believe he as ANYTHING to offer.
Peeter
 
On 2016-09-27 14:06, Irv Bromberg wrote:
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] on behalf of Aristeo Fernando [[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 01:55
You, Irv, are another one fooled by the reformation of the Jewish calendars in 358 AD. 

When was the Feast of the Dedication held?  What is the name of the Feast in the Jewish language?

[The comma was added after the first "3" in the subject line by Aristeo, apparently by mistake.]

Irv replies: It is Hanukkah, which is an 8-day festival (not a "feast") which starts on the 25th of Kislev and is of rabbinic origin (not mentioned in the Torah) observed since the ancient Greeks were driven out of the Holy Land by the Maccabees. [It so happens that this year this Hanukkah starts on Christmas Day, but that is unusually late, and has no particular significance.]

The Feast of the Dedication was held on the 15th of the seventh month in the religious purely lunar calendar.  It says on John 10:22 of the Holy Bible that it was winter.  It was held on 3760 Shevat 15 in the Jewish calendar, or 1 BC 01-27, a winter day.

Irv replies: The seventh month is Tishrei, as specified in the Torah. The 15th of Tishrei is the first day of the festival of Sukkot, also as specified in the Torah. I believe that Aristeo is confusing multiple Hebrew calendar events, but I have no idea why, nor do I care. The Hebrew calendar was never purely lunar. I think that I've endured enough of this ranting, and won't bother responding any further.
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4664/13096 - Release Date: 09/27/16
 


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Re: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

Karl Palmen
In reply to this post by Walter J Ziobro

Dear Walter and Calendar People

 

From: Walter J Ziobro [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 29 September 2016 04:34
To: [hidden email]; Palmen, Karl (STFC,RAL,ISIS)
Subject: RE: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

 

Dear Karl

I have heard something similar but I don't believe it

I think that the ban was expressly on the intercalary month because Mohammed didn't like Muslims being confused about which month should be Ramadan  In his mind it was simpler to just count 12 months from Ramadan to Ramadan than come up with a complicated leap month rule

In fact I think that there were actually 3 leap months added to the first 10 years before Mohammed banned them I think that the true first month of the Islamic Era was actually 3 months prior to the July date that Is usually cited. in April and that the pre Islamic Arab calendar was luni solar commencing in early spring This would mean that Ramadan would usually occur around December in the pre Islamic calendar This gives meaning to the Islamic belief that the Koran was first revealed to Mohammed in Ramadan on the Night of Nights which most probably refers to the Northern Winter Solstice

KARL REPLIES: Perhaps it was 4 leap months (or should have been), so the first month normally corresponds to the Hebrew month of Nisan, which begins around the time of the Northern Spring Equinox in early spring.  In the year 622 it would occur around March 20 Julian = March 23 proleptic Gregorian, near the epoch of the Solar Hijri era.

The Wikipedia article says that intercalation would have taken place for no more than 200 years. This lead me to think that an Octaeteris (8 years of 3 leap months) could have then been used. It would be convenient for making each month in turn be the month doubled to have a leap month. Each month would be doubled over the course of four Octaeterides (32 years of 12 leap months). Also it would be possible to ensure that the year that has the first month doubled always occurs three years after the year than has the twelfth month doubled, so avoiding a leap month that occurs only 14 months after the previous leap month. This avoidance of the 14-month interval is not possible with a  Metonic cycle.

This Octaeteris would cause the calendar to usually run a month late after the 200 years of use, so giving rise to the 3 leap months rather than 4 leap months and the April rather than March start of the year. Perhaps, disagreement about reform of the Octaeteris made way for the abolition of intercalation.

Note that the Octaeteris runs exactly a month later than the Metonic cycle in 152 years = 19 Octaeterides (19*3=57 leap months) = 8 Metonic cycles (8*7=56 leap months).

In https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Islamic_calendar I see mentioned the possibility that 9 months were intercalated in 24 years, which would be equivalent to three Octaeterides.

I’ve also found in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi_Kogi_Enavot that the five or six additional days in the Coptic calendar may be called El Nasii.

 

Karl

16(01(28

PS: Cycle 1 of my yerm calendar begins about halfway between the solar and lunar Hijri epochs.


Walter Ziobro

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

 


On Wednesday, September 28, 2016 Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Irv, Peter, Amos, Robert and Calendar People

 

I recall Aristeo mentioning his idea that the Hebrew Calendar was at some time a pure lunar calendar.

 

I’ve found out that some scholars believe that 5the calendar that preceded the Islamic calendar was always pure lunar and the Nasi’ banned by Islam was not a leap month, but the moving of a forbidden month to a convenient time of the year.

 

Other scholars think that  that the leap month took the form of doubling one month and each of the 12 months was in turn doubled.

 

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasi%27 for more details.

 

 

I was also aware that Walter’s 34-33-34-33-34-33-34 would not get  every one of the 12 regular months followed by a leap month until the first correction of the 19-year cycle. The shortest such period must have between 33 and 34 years and to be accurate must have 33 years and 7 regular months. This would have seven 34s and five 33s. Twelve of these would from a 391-year cycle with 144 leap months.  If the 33s and 34s were spread as smoothly as possible:

 

34-33-34-33-34-33-34, 34-33-34-33-34 the months preceding the leap months would be 01, 10, 06, 03, 11, 08, 04, 01, 10, 06, 03, 11 for the first cycle so not all 12 months would have a leap month after it in the first 12 leap years, but this would equal out over a whole 391-year cycle of 144 leap months.

 

So as a curiosity and a puzzle, what is the smoothest distribution of seven 34s and five 33s that ensures every one of the 12 regular months gets a leap month after it once in a single cycle. I at present don’t have an answer, but have thought of a way of finding one.

                                                                                               

 

If the intervals were 38s and 26s instead of 34s and 33s, each month would automatically in turn be the month before a leap month (or doubled to form a leap month) in the order they occur in the years as in the intercalation scheme mentioned in the Nasi’ wiki page linked above.

 

This appears to be achievable by fixing the leap years to a 19-year cycle and allowing the leap months to progress one month later in each leap year till the end, then go back to the start of the next leap year. However the leap year would eventually go back to the start of a leap year two years later, so creating an interval of 14 months instead of 26 or 38 months. This could be fixed by postponing the leap year by one year on such an occasion. Then one would get two consecutive 26s, which would not normally occur.

 

Karl

 

16(01(27

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Peter Zilahy Ingerman, PhD
Sent: 27 September 2016 22:09
To: CALNDR-[hidden email]
Subject: Re: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

 

I agree with Irv. I have  added Aristeo to my "junk" list; I do not believe he as ANYTHING to offer.

Peeter

 

On 2016-09-27 14:06, Irv Bromberg wrote:

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] on behalf of Aristeo Fernando [[hidden email]]

Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 01:55

You, Irv, are another one fooled by the reformation of the Jewish calendars in 358 AD. 


When was the Feast of the Dedication held?  What is the name of the Feast in the Jewish language?

[The comma was added after the first "3" in the subject line by Aristeo, apparently by mistake.]: It is Hanukkah, which is an 8-day festival (not a "feast") which starts on the 25th of Kislev and is of rabbinic origin (not mentioned in the Torah) observed since the ancient Greeks were driven out of the Holy Land by the Maccabees. [It so happens that this year this Hanukkah starts on Christmas Day, but that is unusually late, and has no particular significance.]


The Feast of the Dedication was held on the 15th of the seventh month in the religious purely lunar calendar.  It says on John 10:22 of the Holy Bible that it was winter.  It was held on 3760 Shevat 15 in the Jewish calendar, or 1 BC 01-27, a winter day.

Irv replies: The seventh month is Tishrei, as specified in the Torah. The 15th of Tishrei is the first day of the festival of Sukkot, also as specified in the Torah. I believe that Aristeo is confusing multiple Hebrew calendar events, but I have no idea why, nor do I care. The Hebrew calendar was never purely lunar. I think that I've endured enough of this ranting, and won't bother responding any further.

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4664/13096 - Release Date: 09/27/16

 

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Dionysius and Scythia

Sepp Rothwangl
Proceedings for conference in Blagoevgrad/ Bulgaria: