Other Uniform Astronomical-Terrestrial Seasonal Calendars

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
10 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Other Uniform Astronomical-Terrestrial Seasonal Calendars

Michael Ossipoff

For calendars, I use “uniform” to mean that a calendar is uniform if all of its months start on the same day of the week.  A calendar is “identical” if, in a common-year, all its months are identical to eachother in all respects other than their names and positions in the year,

.

It’s convenient to have 1-word terms for those properties. If there are already such terms, then of course I’ll use them.

.

My subject line didn’t specify “Fixed”, “Leapweek”, or “7-day-week”, because nearly all of the calendars being discussed here have those properties.    (Of course “Leapweek” inplies “Fixed”, and “identical” implies “uniform”.)

.

28&14 is a uniform astronomical-terrestrial seasonal calendar.

.

For a hypothetical Utopian-Epoch, a time when people want a complete break from the past, the only justification for months would be for naming seasonal parts of the year.  Otherwise, the minimal WeekDate system would be preferable. At such a time, I’d propose a Nearest-Monday year-start rule based on the Winter-Solstice.

.

Because the Roman month-system has been in use for about 2000 years, it can be regarded as a seasonal calendar, because everyone everywhere knows what kind of temperatures and weather, and environmental-conditions in general, tend to accompany each month in their region.

.

But I’m talking about when people want a complete break from the past, and I’m interested in an _astronomical_-terrestrial seasonal-calendar.    …by which I mean a calendar that starts its year on a solstice or equinox, and refers to terrestrial seasons, at least in some rough approximate way.

.

The first astronomical-terrestrial seasonal calendar that I heard of was Asimov’s World Seasonal Calendar. But I didn’t and don’t care for its use of astronomical-quarters as the year-division.

.

Asimov’s calendar qualifies as astronomical-terrestrial because it starts on the Winter-Solstice, and, though he numbered the quarters for international use, he said that his quarters represent the 4 terrestrial seasons, Winter, Spring, Summer and Autumn (…which of course are in different quarters north and south of the equator).

.

But of course the stand-out astronomical-terrestrial calendar is the French-Republican Calendar. I doubt that there’s ever been anything like it, even as a proposal.

.

But I want a 7-day week, international naming, and 6 seasons.

.

That’s why I propose 28&14.  Like World-Seasonal and French-Republican, it conventionally starts both the year and one of its nominal-seasons on the same ecliptic cardinal-point (solstice or equinox).

.

I shouldn’t repeat my definition of 28&14 here. I’ll just say that 28&14 starts its year and its nominal Winter at (within half a week of) the Winter-Solstice. In World-Seasonal and French-Republican, too, nominal Winter starts at or very near the Winter-Solstice.

.

Conventional, but is that in keeping with how people perceive Winter?

.

I’ve posted a quote from Wikipedia showing that there’s long been wide consensus that Winter starts when December starts, Summer starts when June starts, and Spring starts when April starts. That goes back to 16th to 19th century English writers, and continues to the present.

.

(Of course south of the equator, the nominal-season-date relation is reversed.)

.

Partly because of those old writings, and partly because of what’s obvious to us all, I call March “Pre-Spring”, and September “Pre-Autumn”.   Both in 28&14 and 4&5 Seasons-Consensus (defined below) have a Pre-Spring and a Pre-Autumn   …resulting in two astronomical-terrestrial seasonal calendars with 6 seasons, But 4&5 Seasons-Consensus complies with the abovementioned consensus regarding the start-time of Winter and Summer.

.

So, in addition to my 28&14 proposal, I wanted a uniform astronomical-terrestrial seasonal calendar that reflects the above-described season-start consensus.

.

Hence 4&5 Season-Consensus (4&5 SC).

.

4&5 SC, like 28&14, uses Nearest-Monday with the Winter-Solstice (or the end of the most recent Y-day interval (with the 1st interval starting at some Winter-Solstice) as the intended-time), and uses week-of-month and day-of-week designation for dates in a month.

.

As in 28&14, the months are named by their numbered order in a season. The seasons have the same names as in 28&14.

.

Here are the seasons, and the lengths (in weeks) of their months:

.

Winter 544, Pre-Spring 4, Spring 54, Summer 544, Pre-Autumn 4, Autumn 54

.

As I said, the year starts on (within about half a week of) the Winter-Solstice.   …while Winter starts 3 weeks before that year-start day (approximating our December 1st).

.

Admittedly there’s an awkward mismatch between season and week-number, as the cost of starting the year at the Winter-Solstice and starting nominal Winter 3 weeks before that.

.

That leaves a choice to be made regarding week-number designation:

.

Shall the year start with week 4 of the month of South1, in order to keep structural-symmetry and consistent month-naming?

.

(I’ll call that version 2)

.

Or

.

Shall the South1 month be divided into two separately week-numbered months, with the first one (3 wk) in the old year, and called “Early South”, and the second one (2 wk) in the new year, and called “South1”   … in order to be able to reset all the numbers to “One”, and start the year with “South1 week 1 Monday”?

.

(I’ll call that “Version 1)

.

I don’t know which would be better.  I propose both, but, to emphasize the Winter-Solstice year-start, with all numbers reset to 1, I tentatively choose version 1.

.

I emphasize that that choice is a subjective, individual, tentative choice. I make no claim that it’s objectively better.

.

Just like 28&14, days in a month are designated by their week-number in that month and the day of the week.

.

I emphasize that 28&14, and the two versions of 4&5 SC are proposed only for a hypothetical population who want a complete break with the past.

.

Early South  Week 1  Thursday  (4&5 SC version 1)

.

South1  Week 1  Thursday  (4&5 SC version 2)

.

Southward3  Week 3  Thursday  (28&14)

.

2018-W50-4   (ISO WeekDate)

.

2018-W51-4  (South-Solstice WeekDate)

.

December 13th  (Roman-Gregorian)

.

December 14th (Hanke-Henry)

.

Michael Ossipoff

 

 

 

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Other Uniform Astronomical-Terrestrial Seasonal Calendars

Michael Ossipoff

I said:


[quote]

Early South  Week 1  Thursday  (4&5 SC version 1)

.

South1  Week 1  Thursday  (4&5 SC version 2)

[/quote]


That was an error resulting from that calendar having separate start-dates for the year and for the South season,.


That should have said:


Early South Week 2  Thursday (4&5 SC version 1)


South1 Week 2  Thursday (4&5 SC version 2)


Michael Ossipoff





On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 12:35 PM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

For calendars, I use “uniform” to mean that a calendar is uniform if all of its months start on the same day of the week.  A calendar is “identical” if, in a common-year, all its months are identical to eachother in all respects other than their names and positions in the year,

.

It’s convenient to have 1-word terms for those properties. If there are already such terms, then of course I’ll use them.

.

My subject line didn’t specify “Fixed”, “Leapweek”, or “7-day-week”, because nearly all of the calendars being discussed here have those properties.    (Of course “Leapweek” inplies “Fixed”, and “identical” implies “uniform”.)

.

28&14 is a uniform astronomical-terrestrial seasonal calendar.

.

For a hypothetical Utopian-Epoch, a time when people want a complete break from the past, the only justification for months would be for naming seasonal parts of the year.  Otherwise, the minimal WeekDate system would be preferable. At such a time, I’d propose a Nearest-Monday year-start rule based on the Winter-Solstice.

.

Because the Roman month-system has been in use for about 2000 years, it can be regarded as a seasonal calendar, because everyone everywhere knows what kind of temperatures and weather, and environmental-conditions in general, tend to accompany each month in their region.

.

But I’m talking about when people want a complete break from the past, and I’m interested in an _astronomical_-terrestrial seasonal-calendar.    …by which I mean a calendar that starts its year on a solstice or equinox, and refers to terrestrial seasons, at least in some rough approximate way.

.

The first astronomical-terrestrial seasonal calendar that I heard of was Asimov’s World Seasonal Calendar. But I didn’t and don’t care for its use of astronomical-quarters as the year-division.

.

Asimov’s calendar qualifies as astronomical-terrestrial because it starts on the Winter-Solstice, and, though he numbered the quarters for international use, he said that his quarters represent the 4 terrestrial seasons, Winter, Spring, Summer and Autumn (…which of course are in different quarters north and south of the equator).

.

But of course the stand-out astronomical-terrestrial calendar is the French-Republican Calendar. I doubt that there’s ever been anything like it, even as a proposal.

.

But I want a 7-day week, international naming, and 6 seasons.

.

That’s why I propose 28&14.  Like World-Seasonal and French-Republican, it conventionally starts both the year and one of its nominal-seasons on the same ecliptic cardinal-point (solstice or equinox).

.

I shouldn’t repeat my definition of 28&14 here. I’ll just say that 28&14 starts its year and its nominal Winter at (within half a week of) the Winter-Solstice. In World-Seasonal and French-Republican, too, nominal Winter starts at or very near the Winter-Solstice.

.

Conventional, but is that in keeping with how people perceive Winter?

.

I’ve posted a quote from Wikipedia showing that there’s long been wide consensus that Winter starts when December starts, Summer starts when June starts, and Spring starts when April starts. That goes back to 16th to 19th century English writers, and continues to the present.

.

(Of course south of the equator, the nominal-season-date relation is reversed.)

.

Partly because of those old writings, and partly because of what’s obvious to us all, I call March “Pre-Spring”, and September “Pre-Autumn”.   Both in 28&14 and 4&5 Seasons-Consensus (defined below) have a Pre-Spring and a Pre-Autumn   …resulting in two astronomical-terrestrial seasonal calendars with 6 seasons, But 4&5 Seasons-Consensus complies with the abovementioned consensus regarding the start-time of Winter and Summer.

.

So, in addition to my 28&14 proposal, I wanted a uniform astronomical-terrestrial seasonal calendar that reflects the above-described season-start consensus.

.

Hence 4&5 Season-Consensus (4&5 SC).

.

4&5 SC, like 28&14, uses Nearest-Monday with the Winter-Solstice (or the end of the most recent Y-day interval (with the 1st interval starting at some Winter-Solstice) as the intended-time), and uses week-of-month and day-of-week designation for dates in a month.

.

As in 28&14, the months are named by their numbered order in a season. The seasons have the same names as in 28&14.

.

Here are the seasons, and the lengths (in weeks) of their months:

.

Winter 544, Pre-Spring 4, Spring 54, Summer 544, Pre-Autumn 4, Autumn 54

.

As I said, the year starts on (within about half a week of) the Winter-Solstice.   …while Winter starts 3 weeks before that year-start day (approximating our December 1st).

.

Admittedly there’s an awkward mismatch between season and week-number, as the cost of starting the year at the Winter-Solstice and starting nominal Winter 3 weeks before that.

.

That leaves a choice to be made regarding week-number designation:

.

Shall the year start with week 4 of the month of South1, in order to keep structural-symmetry and consistent month-naming?

.

(I’ll call that version 2)

.

Or

.

Shall the South1 month be divided into two separately week-numbered months, with the first one (3 wk) in the old year, and called “Early South”, and the second one (2 wk) in the new year, and called “South1”   … in order to be able to reset all the numbers to “One”, and start the year with “South1 week 1 Monday”?

.

(I’ll call that “Version 1)

.

I don’t know which would be better.  I propose both, but, to emphasize the Winter-Solstice year-start, with all numbers reset to 1, I tentatively choose version 1.

.

I emphasize that that choice is a subjective, individual, tentative choice. I make no claim that it’s objectively better.

.

Just like 28&14, days in a month are designated by their week-number in that month and the day of the week.

.

I emphasize that 28&14, and the two versions of 4&5 SC are proposed only for a hypothetical population who want a complete break with the past.

.

Early South  Week 1  Thursday  (4&5 SC version 1)

.

South1  Week 1  Thursday  (4&5 SC version 2)

.

Southward3  Week 3  Thursday  (28&14)

.

2018-W50-4   (ISO WeekDate)

.

2018-W51-4  (South-Solstice WeekDate)

.

December 13th  (Roman-Gregorian)

.

December 14th (Hanke-Henry)

.

Michael Ossipoff

 

 

 

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Other Uniform Astronomical-Terrestrial Seasonal Calendars

Peter Meyer
In reply to this post by Michael Ossipoff
Michael Ossipoff said:

> I said:
> [quote]
> Early South  Week 1  Thursday  (4&5 SC version 1)
> South1  Week 1  Thursday  (4&5 SC version 2)
> [/quote]
>
> That was an error resulting from that calendar having separate start-dates
> for the year and for the South season,.
>
> That should have said:
>
> Early South Week 2  Thursday (4&5 SC version 1)
> South1 Week 2  Thursday (4&5 SC version 2)
>
> Michael Ossipoff

I finally got tired of skimming Michael's posts to see to what new
intellectual nadir he has descended.

I now just filter his posts to the trash.  I suspect I am not the first
member of CALNDR-L to do this.

Of course, this will not dissuade Michael from continuing to post ad
nauseam more of his (in his opinion) interesting, informative and even
occasionally important 'contributions' to calendar science (if only in
the future, when the general population is finally ready to accept his
insights and perceptive judgements) but at least some members of
CALNDR-L will be spared from being informed that he has done so.

Regards,
Peter Meyer
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Other Uniform Astronomical-Terrestrial Seasonal Calendars

Amos Shapir-2
Hi Peter and calendar people,

The premise of CALNDR-L is discussion based on "if you show me yours, I'll show you mine".  Pointing and snickering is mainly frowned upon.  Please be tolerant, that's what this list is about.

On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 7:50 AM Peter Meyer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Michael Ossipoff said:

> I said:
> [quote]
> Early South  Week 1  Thursday  (4&5 SC version 1)
> South1  Week 1  Thursday  (4&5 SC version 2)
> [/quote]
>
> That was an error resulting from that calendar having separate start-dates
> for the year and for the South season,.
>
> That should have said:
>
> Early South Week 2  Thursday (4&5 SC version 1)
> South1 Week 2  Thursday (4&5 SC version 2)
>
> Michael Ossipoff

I finally got tired of skimming Michael's posts to see to what new
intellectual nadir he has descended.

I now just filter his posts to the trash.  I suspect I am not the first
member of CALNDR-L to do this.

Of course, this will not dissuade Michael from continuing to post ad
nauseam more of his (in his opinion) interesting, informative and even
occasionally important 'contributions' to calendar science (if only in
the future, when the general population is finally ready to accept his
insights and perceptive judgements) but at least some members of
CALNDR-L will be spared from being informed that he has done so.

Regards,
Peter Meyer


--
Amos Shapir
 
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Uniform and Identical Calendars Re: Other Uniform Astronomical-Terrestrial Seasonal Calendars

k.palmen@btinternet.com
In reply to this post by Peter Meyer
Dear Peter, Michael and Calendar People

I haven't read all of Michael's note. it has too many things in it. I'll deal only with the two concepts he defined early in the note.

Michael defines a calendar as being uniform if all months (and possibly other divisions) begin on the same day of week. Such calendars have the advantage that the months can be divided into weeks, like in my Week and Month calendar, which Michael uses. I'd like a better name for uniform, but it may take some time to find one. Suggestions are welcome.

Michael defines a calendar as identical if all months in a common year are identical to each other, except in name and position. I don't think this is a useful concept, because leap years are excluded.

Karl

Friday Beta December 2018

vendredo beto decembro 2018  (Esperanto)

----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 14/12/2018 - 05:50 (GMT)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: Other Uniform Astronomical-Terrestrial Seasonal Calendars

Michael Ossipoff said:

> I said:
> [quote]
> Early South  Week 1  Thursday  (4&5 SC version 1)
> South1  Week 1  Thursday  (4&5 SC version 2)
> [/quote]
>
> That was an error resulting from that calendar having separate start-dates
> for the year and for the South season,.
>
> That should have said:
>
> Early South Week 2  Thursday (4&5 SC version 1)
> South1 Week 2  Thursday (4&5 SC version 2)
>
> Michael Ossipoff

I finally got tired of skimming Michael's posts to see to what new
intellectual nadir he has descended.

I now just filter his posts to the trash.  I suspect I am not the first
member of CALNDR-L to do this.

Of course, this will not dissuade Michael from continuing to post ad
nauseam more of his (in his opinion) interesting, informative and even
occasionally important 'contributions' to calendar science (if only in
the future, when the general population is finally ready to accept his
insights and perceptive judgements) but at least some members of
CALNDR-L will be spared from being informed that he has done so.

Regards,
Peter Meyer
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Uniform and Identical Calendars Re: Other Uniform Astronomical-Terrestrial Seasonal Calendars

Michael Ossipoff
Karl--

You wrote:

[quote]
I'd like a better name for uniform, but it may take some time to find one. Suggestions are welcome.
[/quote]

Month-start-consistent?

[quote]
Michael defines a calendar as identical if all months in a common year are identical to each other, except in name and position. I don't think this is a useful concept, because leap years are excluded.
[/quote

But leapyears always add something different, in some part of the leapyear, and its impossible for a calendar's leapyears to share the identical-ness property. All that's possible is for a common years' months to be identical to eachother.

Early South  Week 2  Friday  (5&4 SC version 1)
South1  Week 2  Friday (5&4 SC version 2)
2018-50-6  (ISO WeekDate0
2018-51-6  (South Solstice WeekDatre)
December 14th  (Roman-Gregorian)
December 15th (Hanke-Henry)

Michael Ossipoff
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Uniform and Identical Calendars Re: Other Uniform Astronomical-Terrestrial Seasonal Calendars

Michael Ossipoff
Typo:

2018-50-6  (ISO WeekDate0
2018-51-6  (South Solstice WeekDatre)

I meant:

2018-W50-5 (ISO WeekDate)
2018 W51-5  (South Solstice WeekDate)


Early South  Week 2  Friday

Michael Ossipoff

On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 2:39 PM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:
Typo:

2018-50-6  (ISO WeekDate0
2018-51-6  (South Solstice WeekDatre)

I meant:

2018-W50-5 (ISO WeekDate)
2018 W51-5  (South Solstice WeekDate)
Early South  Week 2  Friday

Michael Ossipoff
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Uniform and Identical Calendars Re: Other Uniform Astronomical-Terrestrial Seasonal Calendars

Michael H Deckers
In reply to this post by Michael Ossipoff
    On 2018-12-14 18:52, Michael Ossipoff wrote:


> [quote]
> I'd like a better name for uniform, but it may take some time to find one.
> Suggestions are welcome.
> [/quote]

    From [https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/uniform]
    I suggest "ossified" and "plumb".

    Michael Deckers.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Uniform and Identical Calendars Re: Other Uniform Astronomical-Terrestrial Seasonal Calendars

k.palmen@btinternet.com
In reply to this post by Michael Ossipoff
Dear Michael and Calendar People

I still regard it as a misleading concept, because not all months are identical. I'd call it something like an infrequent variation calendar.

A calendar where all months are identical, except for one month in a leap year.

This is a more rigorous definition, because it rules out leap years where many of the months differ from those in a common year and possibly from each other.

Karl

Saturday Beta December 2018

----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 14/12/2018 - 19:25 (GMT)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: Uniform and Identical Calendars Re: Other Uniform Astronomical-Terrestrial Seasonal Calendars

Conceivably there could be a calendar whose leapyear has identical months, and then of course its common-year wouldn't.

But, since the common-year is typically more frequent, identical-ness matters more for common-years, and so I defined identical-ness for common-years.

Michael Ossipoff

Early South  Week 2  Friday


On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 1:52 PM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:
Karl--

You wrote:

[quote]
I'd like a better name for uniform, but it may take some time to find one. Suggestions are welcome.
[/quote]

Month-start-consistent?

[quote]
Michael defines a calendar as identical if all months in a common year are identical to each other, except in name and position. I don't think this is a useful concept, because leap years are excluded.
[/quote

But leapyears always add something different, in some part of the leapyear, and its impossible for a calendar's leapyears to share the identical-ness property. All that's possible is for a common years' months to be identical to eachother.

Early South  Week 2  Friday  (5&4 SC version 1)
South1  Week 2  Friday (5&4 SC version 2)
2018-50-6  (ISO WeekDate0
2018-51-6  (South Solstice WeekDatre)
December 14th  (Roman-Gregorian)
December 15th (Hanke-Henry)

Michael Ossipoff


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Uniform and Identical Calendars Re: Other Uniform Astronomical-Terrestrial Seasonal Calendars

Michael Ossipoff

Karl says:

I still regard it as a misleading concept, because not all months are identical.

I like "Month-Identical".  

For more explicitness, it could be "Common-Year-Month-Identical", but that's unnecessarily long, because it's obvious that it would be impossible for any reasonable calendar to have identical months in both common and leap years.

I'd call it something like an infrequent variation calendar.

That's far too vague.

As for "Uniform", that could be changed to "Month-Start-Uniform", or maybe just "Month-Uniform", signifyng that it refers to something uniform about the months--something specified in the definition ("A calendar is "Month-Uniform" if all of its months always start on the same day of the week.").

Early South  Week 2  Saturday  (5&4 SC version 1)
South1  Week 2  Saturday (5&4 SC version 2)
2018-W50-6  (ISO WeekDate)
2018-W51-6  (South-Solstice WeekDate)
December 15th  (Roman-Gregorian)
December 16th (Hanke-Henry)

Michael Ossipoff