Naming Months, weeks, etc.

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Naming Months, weeks, etc.

Karl Palmen - UKRI STFC

Dear Jamison, Michael, Walter, Irv’s & other calendar people

 

I haven’t followed the conversations between Jamison and Michael in detail, but have seen that the naming of months after seasons or seasonal phenomena has been addressed.  Such naming cannot be used for a calendar that may be used anywhere in the world, because the seasons differ between the two hemispheres and may even differ within a hemisphere.

 

I expect the people who invented the French Republican calendar wanted new names for calendar months to break with the tradition of the prevailing Gregorian calendar with its Roman months. They could have just numbered the months like the Chinese do, but I expect they would have found such a calendar barren. So instead  seasonal names easy for French people to remember were chosen.

 

The ISO week date calendar could also be thought to be barren and in need of an alternative naming scheme for the weeks. I have thought of playing cards (today Friday 3 of Diamonds)  and also of grouping the weeks into months of 4 or 5 weeks, like in Irv’s Symmetry454 calendar but numbering or naming the week of month instead of the day of month. Now I’m inclined to use letters instead of numbers for the week of month so it can never be confused with the day of month. Today could then be Friday C April or April C Friday. Note that C April & April C are alternative names for ISO week 16 as is 3 of Diamonds.

 

The process of providing meaningful names to months, weeks etc., is beset with problems. For example, my playing card week names have drawn criticism. The process of naming will almost certainly be biased in favour of the culture doing the naming. Perhaps, the only globally acceptable solution is to use numbers globally, while allowing names for local use and these local names can be seasonal.

 

Nevertheless, the existing month names (of the Gregorian calendar) are well known and established in (nearly) all languages, so it seems sensible to use them in a new calendar, like what Irv has done in Symmetry454, rather than create new names, which would need to be established in all languages and may suffer from bias in favour of the naming culture. I mention that the Chinese & Japanese languages use numbers for the Gregorian calendar months (as well as the lunar months).

 

See https://www.hermetic.ch/cal_stud/palmen/playcard.htm  for my suggested playing card names for the weeks.

 

Karl

 

17(04(05

Friday 3 of Diamonds

Friday C April

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Re: Naming Months, weeks, etc.

Michael Ossipoff

On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 11:31 AM, Karl Palmen - UKRI STFC <[hidden email]> wrote:


I haven’t followed the conversations between Jamison and Michael in detail, but have seen that the naming of months after seasons or seasonal phenomena has been addressed.  Such naming cannot be used for a calendar that may be used anywhere in the world, because the seasons differ between the two hemispheres and may even differ within a hemisphere.


Yes, but, though Winter, Spring, Summer and Autumn mean different things in different regions on the same side of the equator, that’s ok, because, at any particular place, a season has a certain meaning there.


And we’ve agreed, here, that, for international use, instead of Winter, Spring, Summer and Autumn, the names South, Northward, North and Southward could be used.


Of course my “Pre-Spring” would then be “Pre-Northward”.


I’ve lived in places where Spring is warm. I’ve lived in places where, for the most part, it’s just that Spring isn’t as cold as Winter. But, whichever place you live in, you know which it is.


In 17th or 18th century England, it was written that April is tentative, hesitant Spring. That’s probably true anywhere.


And the seasons’ relation to plants’ budding and blooming is probably more consistent, with respect to locale and date, than temperature is.


Yes, even at a particular place, the month doesn’t always consistently mean a certain kind of temperature or weather, but that’s just a fact that we’re willing to live with when we propose a seasonal calendar.


As you mentioned, the Roman months have been in use for about 2 millennia, and everyone is familiar with what the month’s mean, seasonally, in their locale (to the extent that a month is seasonally-consistent).


But maybe it could be desired to replace the Roman month-names with season-names. That’s the purpose of my Earth-Seasonal Calendar. As I said in an earlier post, it’s just the Roman months, or the 30,30,31 months, re-named for what season they’re in, and their order in that season.  In a recent post, I specified which months would be in which of 6 seasons.


The version of that Earth-Seasonal Calendar proposal that I propose here is the one that uses the 30,30,31 quarters, with the Nearest-Monday year-start rule.


Here I’ll list again what 6 seasons I define by which months:


Winter: December, January, February


Pre-Spring: March


Spring: April, May


Summer: June, July, August


Pre-Autumn: September


Autumn: October, November


I leave the calendar’s year-start ecliptic-longitude about where it now is, because I feel that seasons are widely-known in terms of months. In some places Summer and Winter are said to start when June and December start, and that’s been my impression too, in spite of what newscasters believe, having gotten it from astronomers who seem to think that terrestrial seasons are, or should be, defined astronomically. (It’s said that, if you like to use a hammer, everything looks like a nail.)


Starting the year on the North-Solstice wouldn’t fit with the months by which the seasons are known, and so I don’t change the year-start time from what it now is.   As I said, I suggest the usual Nearest-Monday year-start rule.


Of course later a stand-alone leapyear-rule could be discussed and proposed. At that time I’d suggest Minimum-Displacement. Of course something differently-worded but equivalent would be fine too.


But, for a first calendar-reform proposal, I don’t think anything else matches Nearest-Monday, as regards simplicity and brevity of definition, and people’s understanding of what is being proposed, without asking them to listen to a longer, numerical definition.


Spring1 19th

Or

Northward1 19th


Michael Ossipoff

 

 

 

 

Yes, but the season name South, Northward, North  & Southward avoid the problem of places north and south of the equator. And it’s alright if those non-committal season-names imply different conditions in different localities.

(I haven’t added any new text below this line.)

 

I expect the people who invented the French Republican calendar wanted new names for calendar months to break with the tradition of the prevailing Gregorian calendar with its Roman months. They could have just numbered the months like the Chinese do, but I expect they would have found such a calendar barren. So instead  seasonal names easy for French people to remember were chosen.

 

The ISO week date calendar could also be thought to be barren and in need of an alternative naming scheme for the weeks. I have thought of playing cards (today Friday 3 of Diamonds)  and also of grouping the weeks into months of 4 or 5 weeks, like in Irv’s Symmetry454 calendar but numbering or naming the week of month instead of the day of month. Now I’m inclined to use letters instead of numbers for the week of month so it can never be confused with the day of month. Today could then be Friday C April or April C Friday. Note that C April & April C are alternative names for ISO week 16 as is 3 of Diamonds.

 

The process of providing meaningful names to months, weeks etc., is beset with problems. For example, my playing card week names have drawn criticism. The process of naming will almost certainly be biased in favour of the culture doing the naming. Perhaps, the only globally acceptable solution is to use numbers globally, while allowing names for local use and these local names can be seasonal.

 

Nevertheless, the existing month names (of the Gregorian calendar) are well known and established in (nearly) all languages, so it seems sensible to use them in a new calendar, like what Irv has done in Symmetry454, rather than create new names, which would need to be established in all languages and may suffer from bias in favour of the naming culture. I mention that the Chinese & Japanese languages use numbers for the Gregorian calendar months (as well as the lunar months).

 

See https://www.hermetic.ch/cal_stud/palmen/playcard.htm  for my suggested playing card names for the weeks.

 

Karl

 

17(04(05

Friday 3 of Diamonds

Friday C April

 

 


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Re: Naming Months, weeks, etc.

Michael Ossipoff

When I said:

"Starting the year on the North-Solstice wouldn’t fit with the months by which the seasons are known, and so I don’t change the year-start time from what it now is."  ...

I meant "South Solstice", the Winter-Solstice for locations north of the equator. It would be a natural place to start the year in a seasonal calendar, but it wouldn't coincide with the beginning of one of 12 equal months that are seasonally-familiar to people. So I chose to leave the year-start time as-is, using the nearest-Monday year-start rule.

Of course, as I define this calendar, the first month of the year is Winter2 (or South2). That seems acceptable, because, now too, we start the year in the middle of Winter.

Michael Ossipoff


On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 8:14 PM, Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 11:31 AM, Karl Palmen - UKRI STFC <[hidden email]> wrote:


I haven’t followed the conversations between Jamison and Michael in detail, but have seen that the naming of months after seasons or seasonal phenomena has been addressed.  Such naming cannot be used for a calendar that may be used anywhere in the world, because the seasons differ between the two hemispheres and may even differ within a hemisphere.


Yes, but, though Winter, Spring, Summer and Autumn mean different things in different regions on the same side of the equator, that’s ok, because, at any particular place, a season has a certain meaning there.


And we’ve agreed, here, that, for international use, instead of Winter, Spring, Summer and Autumn, the names South, Northward, North and Southward could be used.


Of course my “Pre-Spring” would then be “Pre-Northward”.


I’ve lived in places where Spring is warm. I’ve lived in places where, for the most part, it’s just that Spring isn’t as cold as Winter. But, whichever place you live in, you know which it is.


In 17th or 18th century England, it was written that April is tentative, hesitant Spring. That’s probably true anywhere.


And the seasons’ relation to plants’ budding and blooming is probably more consistent, with respect to locale and date, than temperature is.


Yes, even at a particular place, the month doesn’t always consistently mean a certain kind of temperature or weather, but that’s just a fact that we’re willing to live with when we propose a seasonal calendar.


As you mentioned, the Roman months have been in use for about 2 millennia, and everyone is familiar with what the month’s mean, seasonally, in their locale (to the extent that a month is seasonally-consistent).


But maybe it could be desired to replace the Roman month-names with season-names. That’s the purpose of my Earth-Seasonal Calendar. As I said in an earlier post, it’s just the Roman months, or the 30,30,31 months, re-named for what season they’re in, and their order in that season.  In a recent post, I specified which months would be in which of 6 seasons.


The version of that Earth-Seasonal Calendar proposal that I propose here is the one that uses the 30,30,31 quarters, with the Nearest-Monday year-start rule.


Here I’ll list again what 6 seasons I define by which months:


Winter: December, January, February


Pre-Spring: March


Spring: April, May


Summer: June, July, August


Pre-Autumn: September


Autumn: October, November


I leave the calendar’s year-start ecliptic-longitude about where it now is, because I feel that seasons are widely-known in terms of months. In some places Summer and Winter are said to start when June and December start, and that’s been my impression too, in spite of what newscasters believe, having gotten it from astronomers who seem to think that terrestrial seasons are, or should be, defined astronomically. (It’s said that, if you like to use a hammer, everything looks like a nail.)


Starting the year on the North-Solstice wouldn’t fit with the months by which the seasons are known, and so I don’t change the year-start time from what it now is.   As I said, I suggest the usual Nearest-Monday year-start rule.


Of course later a stand-alone leapyear-rule could be discussed and proposed. At that time I’d suggest Minimum-Displacement. Of course something differently-worded but equivalent would be fine too.


But, for a first calendar-reform proposal, I don’t think anything else matches Nearest-Monday, as regards simplicity and brevity of definition, and people’s understanding of what is being proposed, without asking them to listen to a longer, numerical definition.


Spring1 19th

Or

Northward1 19th


Michael Ossipoff

 

 

 

 

Yes, but the season name South, Northward, North  & Southward avoid the problem of places north and south of the equator. And it’s alright if those non-committal season-names imply different conditions in different localities.

(I haven’t added any new text below this line.)

 

I expect the people who invented the French Republican calendar wanted new names for calendar months to break with the tradition of the prevailing Gregorian calendar with its Roman months. They could have just numbered the months like the Chinese do, but I expect they would have found such a calendar barren. So instead  seasonal names easy for French people to remember were chosen.

 

The ISO week date calendar could also be thought to be barren and in need of an alternative naming scheme for the weeks. I have thought of playing cards (today Friday 3 of Diamonds)  and also of grouping the weeks into months of 4 or 5 weeks, like in Irv’s Symmetry454 calendar but numbering or naming the week of month instead of the day of month. Now I’m inclined to use letters instead of numbers for the week of month so it can never be confused with the day of month. Today could then be Friday C April or April C Friday. Note that C April & April C are alternative names for ISO week 16 as is 3 of Diamonds.

 

The process of providing meaningful names to months, weeks etc., is beset with problems. For example, my playing card week names have drawn criticism. The process of naming will almost certainly be biased in favour of the culture doing the naming. Perhaps, the only globally acceptable solution is to use numbers globally, while allowing names for local use and these local names can be seasonal.

 

Nevertheless, the existing month names (of the Gregorian calendar) are well known and established in (nearly) all languages, so it seems sensible to use them in a new calendar, like what Irv has done in Symmetry454, rather than create new names, which would need to be established in all languages and may suffer from bias in favour of the naming culture. I mention that the Chinese & Japanese languages use numbers for the Gregorian calendar months (as well as the lunar months).

 

See https://www.hermetic.ch/cal_stud/palmen/playcard.htm  for my suggested playing card names for the weeks.

 

Karl

 

17(04(05

Friday 3 of Diamonds

Friday C April

 

 



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Naming years: Re: Naming Months, weeks, etc.

Sepp Rothwangl
Would there a better moment in time for start of a new time concept than the equinox in 239932 days, when all planets are most closely aligned?


Sepp Rothwangl, CEP -239.932
[hidden email]
www.calendersign.com

Am 21.04.2018 um 02:34 schrieb Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]>:


When I said:

"Starting the year on the North-Solstice wouldn’t fit with the months by which the seasons are known, and so I don’t change the year-start time from what it now is."  ...

I meant "South Solstice", the Winter-Solstice for locations north of the equator. It would be a natural place to start the year in a seasonal calendar, but it wouldn't coincide with the beginning of one of 12 equal months that are seasonally-familiar to people. So I chose to leave the year-start time as-is, using the nearest-Monday year-start rule.

Of course, as I define this calendar, the first month of the year is Winter2 (or South2). That seems acceptable, because, now too, we start the year in the middle of Winter.

Michael Ossipoff


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Re: Naming years: Re: Naming Months, weeks, etc.

Jamison Painter
Well, yes. Any time is better, because I do not want to wait 657 years to make changes!

On Sat, Apr 21, 2018, 3:35 AM Sepp ROTHWANGL <[hidden email]> wrote:
Would there a better moment in time for start of a new time concept than the equinox in 239932 days, when all planets are most closely aligned?


<div style="
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Re: Naming years: Re: Naming Months, weeks, etc.

Sepp Rothwangl
Jamison, I bet you will have to wait for!

Sepp Rothwangl, CEP -239.933
[hidden email]
www.calendersign.com

Am 21.04.2018 um 18:54 schrieb Jamison Painter <[hidden email]>:

Well, yes. Any time is better, because I do not want to wait 657 years to make changes!

On Sat, Apr 21, 2018, 3:35 AM Sepp ROTHWANGL <[hidden email]> wrote:
Would there a better moment in time for start of a new time concept than the equinox in 239932 days, when all planets are most closely aligned?


<div style="

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Re: Naming years: Re: Naming Months, weeks, etc.

Brij Bhushan metric VIJ
Sepp., Jamison list, sirs:
Does this infer that the “calendar reform” has come to expect that there is hardly any more to be ‘done/thought’ to conclude that sufficient inputs have been gathered to the to decide upon thd format to be of the World Calendar, recommended for adoption?
Is this the END, of desired inputs? What, then, is thd possible format for United Nations/United States to project to World intellegentia to ponder over for acceptance, and at what expenditure to their subjects!!
Regards,
Ex-Flt Lt Brij Bhushan VIJ, Retd.
Brij-Gregorian Modified caldndar 
Saturday, 2018 April 21H12:37(decimal)

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 21, 2018, at 12:02 PM, Sepp ROTHWANGL <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jamison, I bet you will have to wait for!


Am 21.04.2018 um 18:54 schrieb Jamison Painter <[hidden email]>:

Well, yes. Any time is better, because I do not want to wait 657 years to make changes!

On Sat, Apr 21, 2018, 3:35 AM Sepp ROTHWANGL <[hidden email]> wrote:
Would there a better moment in time for start of a new time concept than the equinox in 239932 days, when all planets are most closely aligned?


<div style="

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Re: Naming years: Re: Naming Months, weeks, etc.

Sepp Rothwangl
Its because stupid gullible believers are the majority

Sepp Rothwangl, CEP -239.931
[hidden email]
www.calendersign.com

Am 21.04.2018 um 21:23 schrieb Brij Bhushan metric VIJ <[hidden email]>:

Sepp., Jamison list, sirs:
Does this infer that the “calendar reform” has come to expect that there is hardly any more to be ‘done/thought’ to conclude that sufficient inputs have been gathered to the to decide upon thd format to be of the World Calendar, recommended for adoption?
Is this the END, of desired inputs? What, then, is thd possible format for United Nations/United States to project to World intellegentia to ponder over for acceptance, and at what expenditure to their subjects!!
Regards,
Ex-Flt Lt Brij Bhushan VIJ, Retd.
Brij-Gregorian Modified caldndar 
Saturday, 2018 April 21H12:37(decimal)

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 21, 2018, at 12:02 PM, Sepp ROTHWANGL <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jamison, I bet you will have to wait for!


Am 21.04.2018 um 18:54 schrieb Jamison Painter <[hidden email]>:

Well, yes. Any time is better, because I do not want to wait 657 years to make changes!

On Sat, Apr 21, 2018, 3:35 AM Sepp ROTHWANGL <[hidden email]> wrote:
Would there a better moment in time for start of a new time concept than the equinox in 239932 days, when all planets are most closely aligned?


<div style="


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Re: Naming years: Re: Naming Months, weeks, etc.

Jamison Painter
I do not know what that means, and I am not sure that I want to, but I shall bite: what DO you mean?

Jamison

3 Floréal CCXXVI, Fern.

On Sun, Apr 22, 2018, 1:55 AM Sepp ROTHWANGL <[hidden email]> wrote:
Its because stupid gullible believers are the majority

<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-tr
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Re: Naming years: Re: Naming Months, weeks, etc.

Sepp Rothwangl
Jamison,
All calendars that actually exist and are globally in use are religious!
See:

And: 
What was the reason or which power was against the French Repulican Calendar?