More calendars

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More calendars

Lance Latham
Group -

I had the pleasure of meeting a gentleman from Armenia
a few days ago, and the conversation somehow got
around to calendars...

I found a few sites on the Web that discuss old
Armenian calendars, but only in vague terms.

Looking into the matter a bit further led to
additional calendars, such as the Old Georgian, etc.
In short, there appear to be a number of calendars
relating to areas of central and western Asia that
were until recently Soviet republics or autonomous
regions.

From what I gather from the descriptions, these
calendars seem to have connections, in the month names
at least, with older Persian solar calendars.

Does any list member know of any texts or papers that
describe these calendars in more detail?

The Armenian Church, by the way, seems to be
autonomous, although fairly closely related to Eastern
Orthodox in general traditions. In terms of theology,
though, I believe they are Monophysites and more
closely related to the Coptic Church.

-Lance


Lance Latham
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Phone:    (518) 274-0570
Address: 78 Hudson Avenue/1st Floor, Green Island, NY 12183
 




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Re: More calendars

Joe Kress
Lance:

Though somewhat remote from your region of interest, you might
find some information in Yiannis E. Meimaris, "Chronological
systems in Roman-Byzantine Palestine and Arabia" (Athens, 1992).

Joe Kress
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Re: More calendars

Palmen, KEV (Karl)
In reply to this post by Lance Latham
Dear Lance

Googling 'Armenian Calendar' has given several pages of possible interest

http://www.saintsarkis.org/armenian_calendar.htm
gives 13 months that begin with 11 August. The months apparently have 30 days each except the last month which has 5 days. This suggests that its a variation of the Zoroastrian Calendar.

http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/personal/jg/html/jg1986f.htm
also mentions the Georgian Calendar

Then I find the Wikipedia page (on the 2nd page of Google)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_calendar
It says nothing about the calendar rules other than that the epoch is in AD 552. The Month names given in the Wikipedia article are different from those given in the other URLs and seem to correspond to letters of an alphabet.


The following calendar which has nothing to do with Georgia has been proposed
http://personal.ecu.edu/mccartyr/hirossa.html

Karl

08(04(11

-----Original Message-----
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List
[mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Lance Latham
Sent: 06 June 2006 15:49
To: [hidden email]
Subject: More calendars


Group -

I had the pleasure of meeting a gentleman from Armenia
a few days ago, and the conversation somehow got
around to calendars...

I found a few sites on the Web that discuss old
Armenian calendars, but only in vague terms.

Looking into the matter a bit further led to
additional calendars, such as the Old Georgian, etc.
In short, there appear to be a number of calendars
relating to areas of central and western Asia that
were until recently Soviet republics or autonomous
regions.

From what I gather from the descriptions, these
calendars seem to have connections, in the month names
at least, with older Persian solar calendars.

Does any list member know of any texts or papers that
describe these calendars in more detail?

The Armenian Church, by the way, seems to be
autonomous, although fairly closely related to Eastern
Orthodox in general traditions. In terms of theology,
though, I believe they are Monophysites and more
closely related to the Coptic Church.

-Lance


Lance Latham
[hidden email]
Phone:    (518) 274-0570
Address: 78 Hudson Avenue/1st Floor, Green Island, NY 12183
 




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Re: More calendars

Lance Latham
RE:
>
> Googling 'Armenian Calendar' has given several pages
> of possible interest

Lance replies:
Thanks, Karl. The 'saintsarkis' page was the most
informative of the lot that I found, but still a bit
vague. Inquiries to the site may turn up more
definitive information.

>
> http://www.saintsarkis.org/armenian_calendar.htm
> gives 13 months that begin with 11 August. The
> months apparently have 30 days each except the last
> month which has 5 days. This suggests that its a
> variation of the Zoroastrian Calendar.

Lance notes:
Also the named days of the month. This seems to be a
Persian/Iranian calendar along the general lines of
the Zoroastrian. I suspect that 'Zoroastrian' is
probably a generic name for a variety of solar
calendar along those lines used in old Persia, and
adopted in adjacent areas.

 
>
http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/personal/jg/html/jg1986f.htm

> also mentions the Georgian Calendar
>
> Then I find the Wikipedia page (on the 2nd page of
> Google)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_calendar
> It says nothing about the calendar rules other than
> that the epoch is in AD 552. The Month names given
> in the Wikipedia article are different from those
> given in the other URLs and seem to correspond to
> letters of an alphabet.

Lance replies:
There are 'old' and 'new' Armenian calendars, and
several variants on the month names. Persian seems to
be the source generally, according to what I have
found to date, but that's the source of some
controversy, apparently.

 
> The following calendar which has nothing to do with
> Georgia has been proposed
> http://personal.ecu.edu/mccartyr/hirossa.html


Lance replies:
The mysterious 'Hirossa', believed by some to be Ben
Franklin. The term 'Georgian' in this case refers to
King George of England. Surfing the Web turns up quite
a few references to a 'Georgian' calendar where
'Gregorian' is obviously intended, so caveat lector.

-Lance


Lance Latham
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Phone:    (518) 274-0570
Address: 78 Hudson Avenue/1st Floor, Green Island, NY 12183
 




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Re: More calendars

Lance Latham
In reply to this post by Joe Kress
RE:

> Though somewhat remote from your region of interest,
> you might
> find some information in Yiannis E. Meimaris,
> "Chronological
> systems in Roman-Byzantine Palestine and Arabia"
> (Athens, 1992).

Lance replies:
Thanks, Joe! I'll see if I can track down a copy.

-Lance


Lance Latham
[hidden email]
Phone:    (518) 274-0570
Address: 78 Hudson Avenue/1st Floor, Green Island, NY 12183
 




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Re: More calendars

Palmen, KEV (Karl)
In reply to this post by Lance Latham
Dear Lance and Calendar People

-----Original Message-----
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List
[mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Lance Latham
Sent: 07 June 2006 15:51
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: More calendars



Lance notes:
Also the named days of the month. This seems to be a
Persian/Iranian calendar along the general lines of
the Zoroastrian. I suspect that 'Zoroastrian' is
probably a generic name for a variety of solar
calendar along those lines used in old Persia, and
adopted in adjacent areas.

KARL SAYS: The Zoroastrian calendars differ from the Persian/Iranian calendars.

The Zoroastrian calendar has months of 30 days followed an epagomenal days, just like the Egyptian calendar. There is one variety that has leap days and a new year beginning near the Vernal equinox and two other varieties without leap days. The new year days (for 1375) are

21 Mar - Fasli (with leap days)
20 Aug - Shensai
21 Jul - Qadimi

None of them are 11 August for this year of 1375. See
http://www.moonwise.co.uk/year/1375zoroastrian.htm


The Iranian/Persian calendar has six months of 31 days followed by five months of 30 days and a month of either 29 or 30 days depending on whether its a leap year. The new year is close to the Vernal equinox. The current year is 1384. See
http://www.moonwise.co.uk/year/1384persian.htm

Karl

08(04(11
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India's SAKA Calendar Re: More calendars

Brij Bhushan Vij
Sirs:
>The Iranian/Persian calendar has six months of 31 days followed by five
>months
>of 30 days and a month of either 29 or 30 days depending on whether its a
>leap
>year.
This is somewhat similar to Hindu SAKA calendar followed by India.
Brij Bhushan Vij
(Tuesday, Kali 5107-W08-02)/265+D-159 (Wednesday, 2006 June
07H11:99(decimal) ET
Aa Nau Bhadra Kritvo Yantu Vishwatah -Rg Veda
Jan:31; Feb:29; Mar:31; Apr:30; May:31; Jun:30
Jul:30; Aug:31; Sep:30; Oct:31; Nov:30; Dec:30
(365th day of Year is World Day)
******As per Kali V-GRhymeCalendaar*****
"Koi bhi cheshtha vayarth nahin hoti, purshaarth karne mein hai"
Contact # 001(201)675-8548



>From: "Palmen, KEV (Karl)" <[hidden email]>
>Reply-To: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List              
><[hidden email]>
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: More calendars
>Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 16:32:36 +0100
>
>Dear Lance and Calendar People
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List
>[mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Lance Latham
>Sent: 07 June 2006 15:51
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: More calendars
>
>
>
>Lance notes:
>Also the named days of the month. This seems to be a
>Persian/Iranian calendar along the general lines of
>the Zoroastrian. I suspect that 'Zoroastrian' is
>probably a generic name for a variety of solar
>calendar along those lines used in old Persia, and
>adopted in adjacent areas.
>
>KARL SAYS: The Zoroastrian calendars differ from the Persian/Iranian
>calendars.
>
>The Zoroastrian calendar has months of 30 days followed an epagomenal days,
>just like the Egyptian calendar. There is one variety that has leap days
>and a new year beginning near the Vernal equinox and two other varieties
>without leap days. The new year days (for 1375) are
>
>21 Mar - Fasli (with leap days)
>20 Aug - Shensai
>21 Jul - Qadimi
>
>None of them are 11 August for this year of 1375. See
>http://www.moonwise.co.uk/year/1375zoroastrian.htm
>
>
>The Iranian/Persian calendar has six months of 31 days followed by five
>months of 30 days and a month of either 29 or 30 days depending on whether
>its a leap year. The new year is close to the Vernal equinox. The current
>year is 1384. See
>http://www.moonwise.co.uk/year/1384persian.htm
>
>Karl
>
>08(04(11
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Re: More calendars

Lance Latham
In reply to this post by Palmen, KEV (Karl)
RE:
 
> KARL SAYS: The Zoroastrian calendars differ from the
> Persian/Iranian calendars.

Lance replies:
Yes, the Zoroastrian calendar differs from the Persian
Solar.

What I'm saying is, I suspect that the calendar called
'Zoroastrian' today may be an instance of a general
model of calendar featuring the 360/5 arrangement and
named days. And such calendars seem to originate in
the area of Asia that includes modern Afghanistan and
Iran. That's just an inference, based on what I see
about the 'old' calendars in locations in that general
area.

Persia seems to have been the 'cradle of calendars',
in the sense that the area seems to have produced a
lot of calendars over the millennia.


-Lance
 


Lance Latham
[hidden email]
Phone:    (518) 274-0570
Address: 78 Hudson Avenue/1st Floor, Green Island, NY 12183
 




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Re: More calendars

Palmen, KEV (Karl)
Dear Lance and Calendar People

-----Original Message-----
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List
[mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Lance Latham
Sent: 07 June 2006 17:05
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: More calendars


RE:
 
> KARL SAYS: The Zoroastrian calendars differ from the
> Persian/Iranian calendars.

Lance replies:
Yes, the Zoroastrian calendar differs from the Persian
Solar.

What I'm saying is, I suspect that the calendar called
'Zoroastrian' today may be an instance of a general
model of calendar featuring the 360/5 arrangement and
named days. And such calendars seem to originate in
the area of Asia that includes modern Afghanistan and
Iran. That's just an inference, based on what I see
about the 'old' calendars in locations in that general
area.

KARL SAYS:
I don't think so. I expect such calendars are based on the Egyptian calendar which has an identical 360/5 arrangement.


LANCE CONTINUES:
Persia seems to have been the 'cradle of calendars',
in the sense that the area seems to have produced a
lot of calendars over the millennia.

KARL SAYS: Perhaps, the Egyptian calendar originated there (a very long time ago).

Karl

08(04(11
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Re: More calendars

scott colmes
In reply to this post by Lance Latham
Hi Lance,

If you've been continuing with this, you have probably figured out by now
that the main Armenian church is related not only to the Copts, but to three
other churches as well:  The Ethiopian, the South Indian, and the Syriac
Orthodox, (not to be confused with either the Nestorian Chaldean Syrian
Orthodox who like the former still speak Aramaic sometimes, nor with the
Syrian branch of Eastern Orthodoxy, also sometimes called Syrian Orthodox).

The churches in question don't usually use the term "Monophysite" (though
they are sometimes called this by others), and of course most people who
belong to them do so because they were born in, not because of the arcane
ancient theology.

What is kinda neat though, is that if you go to the Church of the Holy
Sepulchre in Jerusalem when they have Easter, the Armenians, Syriacs, and
Copts, at one late point,  form a ring of three processions, and ambulate
around the tomb, each third chanting in a different but very ancient chant.  
You can also walk to a living Byzantium (Orthodox) or Medieaval Europe
(Roman) or sit and wait for their chants to waft up to you with the
processions and incense, and then drift away.  However it has been
overcrowded in recent years so best to leave limited space to the adherants
I guess.

>The Armenian Church, by the way, seems to be
>autonomous, although fairly closely related to Eastern
>Orthodox in general traditions. In terms of theology,
>though, I believe they are Monophysites and more
>closely related to the Coptic Church.
>
>-Lance

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Re: More calendars

Charles Moyer
And they are still waiting for one of them to say the magic word in their
chant so the duck will come down and pay them $75.

> From: scott colmes <[hidden email]>
> Reply-To: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List
> <[hidden email]>
> Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 22:49:29 +0300
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: More calendars
>
> Hi Lance,
>
> If you've been continuing with this, you have probably figured out by now
> that the main Armenian church is related not only to the Copts, but to three
> other churches as well:  The Ethiopian, the South Indian, and the Syriac
> Orthodox, (not to be confused with either the Nestorian Chaldean Syrian
> Orthodox who like the former still speak Aramaic sometimes, nor with the
> Syrian branch of Eastern Orthodoxy, also sometimes called Syrian Orthodox).
>
> The churches in question don't usually use the term "Monophysite" (though
> they are sometimes called this by others), and of course most people who
> belong to them do so because they were born in, not because of the arcane
> ancient theology.
>
> What is kinda neat though, is that if you go to the Church of the Holy
> Sepulchre in Jerusalem when they have Easter, the Armenians, Syriacs, and
> Copts, at one late point,  form a ring of three processions, and ambulate
> around the tomb, each third chanting in a different but very ancient chant.
> You can also walk to a living Byzantium (Orthodox) or Medieaval Europe
> (Roman) or sit and wait for their chants to waft up to you with the
> processions and incense, and then drift away.  However it has been
> overcrowded in recent years so best to leave limited space to the adherants
> I guess.
>
>> The Armenian Church, by the way, seems to be
>> autonomous, although fairly closely related to Eastern
>> Orthodox in general traditions. In terms of theology,
>> though, I believe they are Monophysites and more
>> closely related to the Coptic Church.
>>
>> -Lance
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE!
> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/