Michaelmas dates

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Michaelmas dates

Victor Engel
This email originated from outside ECU.

Dear Calendar people,

Today I've been spending some time working on my family tree in a particular family. It seems there are two people named Sissela, daughter of Svend Spidsøen, born a bit more than a year apart. In fact the gap between them is about the same as the gap between my older brother and me, so it's possible for them to be sisters.

In Norway, it is common practice to name children after ancestors or deceased spouses or children. So an idea I had was that the first one born died before the second one was born. But I couldn't find a death record in the range between the two births (actually birth dates are not recorded - only baptism dates).

In any case, one of the girls was baptized 14 Jun 1766. The other was born on Fes. Michaelis 1767. There was a feast day reduction act in Norway in 1770 that eliminated this feast, which encyclopedias give as 29 September or the nearest Sunday. I see wikipedia also gives 10 or 11 October for Old Michelmas.

The problem is that the parish record is a chronological record, so entries are exected to be in chronological order. The entry prior to this one is dated 20 October.

That leads to my question: is there any scenario were Michaelmas comes after 20 October in 1767 in Norway?

Victor
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Re: Michaelmas dates

Walter J Ziobro
This email originated from outside ECU.

Is the date handwritten?

Could the "20" be some other number poorly written?

WalterZiobro




On Saturday, February 1, 2020 Victor Engel <[hidden email]> wrote:

This email originated from outside ECU.

Dear Calendar people,

Today I've been spending some time working on my family tree in a particular family. It seems there are two people named Sissela, daughter of Svend Spidsøen, born a bit more than a year apart. In fact the gap between them is about the same as the gap between my older brother and me, so it's possible for them to be sisters.

In Norway, it is common practice to name children after ancestors or deceased spouses or children. So an idea I had was that the first one born died before the second one was born. But I couldn't find a death record in the range between the two births (actually birth dates are not recorded - only baptism dates).

In any case, one of the girls was baptized 14 Jun 1766. The other was born on Fes. Michaelis 1767. There was a feast day reduction act in Norway in 1770 that eliminated this feast, which encyclopedias give as 29 September or the nearest Sunday. I see wikipedia also gives 10 or 11 October for Old Michelmas.

The problem is that the parish record is a chronological record, so entries are exected to be in chronological order. The entry prior to this one is dated 20 October.

That leads to my question: is there any scenario were Michaelmas comes after 20 October in 1767 in Norway?

Victor
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Re: Michaelmas dates

Victor Engel
This email originated from outside ECU.

It is handwritten, but it's pretty clear, I think. https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/8819/11 (upper, right)

On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 9:31 PM Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

Is the date handwritten?

Could the "20" be some other number poorly written?

WalterZiobro




On Saturday, February 1, 2020 Victor Engel <[hidden email]> wrote:

This email originated from outside ECU.

Dear Calendar people,

Today I've been spending some time working on my family tree in a particular family. It seems there are two people named Sissela, daughter of Svend Spidsøen, born a bit more than a year apart. In fact the gap between them is about the same as the gap between my older brother and me, so it's possible for them to be sisters.

In Norway, it is common practice to name children after ancestors or deceased spouses or children. So an idea I had was that the first one born died before the second one was born. But I couldn't find a death record in the range between the two births (actually birth dates are not recorded - only baptism dates).

In any case, one of the girls was baptized 14 Jun 1766. The other was born on Fes. Michaelis 1767. There was a feast day reduction act in Norway in 1770 that eliminated this feast, which encyclopedias give as 29 September or the nearest Sunday. I see wikipedia also gives 10 or 11 October for Old Michelmas.

The problem is that the parish record is a chronological record, so entries are exected to be in chronological order. The entry prior to this one is dated 20 October.

That leads to my question: is there any scenario were Michaelmas comes after 20 October in 1767 in Norway?

Victor
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Re: Michaelmas dates

Victor Engel
This email originated from outside ECU.

I just noticed that there is another baptism also on Fes. Michaelis that appears in the expected place of September 29 (previous page).

On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 10:36 PM Victor Engel <[hidden email]> wrote:
It is handwritten, but it's pretty clear, I think. https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/8819/11 (upper, right)

On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 9:31 PM Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

Is the date handwritten?

Could the "20" be some other number poorly written?

WalterZiobro




On Saturday, February 1, 2020 Victor Engel <[hidden email]> wrote:

This email originated from outside ECU.

Dear Calendar people,

Today I've been spending some time working on my family tree in a particular family. It seems there are two people named Sissela, daughter of Svend Spidsøen, born a bit more than a year apart. In fact the gap between them is about the same as the gap between my older brother and me, so it's possible for them to be sisters.

In Norway, it is common practice to name children after ancestors or deceased spouses or children. So an idea I had was that the first one born died before the second one was born. But I couldn't find a death record in the range between the two births (actually birth dates are not recorded - only baptism dates).

In any case, one of the girls was baptized 14 Jun 1766. The other was born on Fes. Michaelis 1767. There was a feast day reduction act in Norway in 1770 that eliminated this feast, which encyclopedias give as 29 September or the nearest Sunday. I see wikipedia also gives 10 or 11 October for Old Michelmas.

The problem is that the parish record is a chronological record, so entries are exected to be in chronological order. The entry prior to this one is dated 20 October.

That leads to my question: is there any scenario were Michaelmas comes after 20 October in 1767 in Norway?

Victor
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Re: Michaelmas dates

Victor Engel
This email originated from outside ECU.

Well, maybe not a baptism, but an entry for the feast at least.

On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 10:38 PM Victor Engel <[hidden email]> wrote:
I just noticed that there is another baptism also on Fes. Michaelis that appears in the expected place of September 29 (previous page).

On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 10:36 PM Victor Engel <[hidden email]> wrote:
It is handwritten, but it's pretty clear, I think. https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/8819/11 (upper, right)

On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 9:31 PM Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

Is the date handwritten?

Could the "20" be some other number poorly written?

WalterZiobro




On Saturday, February 1, 2020 Victor Engel <[hidden email]> wrote:

This email originated from outside ECU.

Dear Calendar people,

Today I've been spending some time working on my family tree in a particular family. It seems there are two people named Sissela, daughter of Svend Spidsøen, born a bit more than a year apart. In fact the gap between them is about the same as the gap between my older brother and me, so it's possible for them to be sisters.

In Norway, it is common practice to name children after ancestors or deceased spouses or children. So an idea I had was that the first one born died before the second one was born. But I couldn't find a death record in the range between the two births (actually birth dates are not recorded - only baptism dates).

In any case, one of the girls was baptized 14 Jun 1766. The other was born on Fes. Michaelis 1767. There was a feast day reduction act in Norway in 1770 that eliminated this feast, which encyclopedias give as 29 September or the nearest Sunday. I see wikipedia also gives 10 or 11 October for Old Michelmas.

The problem is that the parish record is a chronological record, so entries are exected to be in chronological order. The entry prior to this one is dated 20 October.

That leads to my question: is there any scenario were Michaelmas comes after 20 October in 1767 in Norway?

Victor
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Re: Michaelmas dates

Amos Shapir-2
This email originated from outside ECU.

Hi Victor and calendar people,

Norway (then ruled by Denmark) switched to the Gregorian calendar in 1700.  Is it possible that the church had still celebrated Old Michaelmas according to the older Julian calendar?  Then it would fall on October 21 or 22 on the Gregorian calendar.

On Sun, Feb 2, 2020 at 6:40 AM Victor Engel <[hidden email]> wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

Well, maybe not a baptism, but an entry for the feast at least.

On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 10:38 PM Victor Engel <[hidden email]> wrote:
I just noticed that there is another baptism also on Fes. Michaelis that appears in the expected place of September 29 (previous page).

On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 10:36 PM Victor Engel <[hidden email]> wrote:
It is handwritten, but it's pretty clear, I think. https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/8819/11 (upper, right)

On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 9:31 PM Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

Is the date handwritten?

Could the "20" be some other number poorly written?

WalterZiobro




On Saturday, February 1, 2020 Victor Engel <[hidden email]> wrote:

This email originated from outside ECU.

Dear Calendar people,

Today I've been spending some time working on my family tree in a particular family. It seems there are two people named Sissela, daughter of Svend Spidsøen, born a bit more than a year apart. In fact the gap between them is about the same as the gap between my older brother and me, so it's possible for them to be sisters.

In Norway, it is common practice to name children after ancestors or deceased spouses or children. So an idea I had was that the first one born died before the second one was born. But I couldn't find a death record in the range between the two births (actually birth dates are not recorded - only baptism dates).

In any case, one of the girls was baptized 14 Jun 1766. The other was born on Fes. Michaelis 1767. There was a feast day reduction act in Norway in 1770 that eliminated this feast, which encyclopedias give as 29 September or the nearest Sunday. I see wikipedia also gives 10 or 11 October for Old Michelmas.

The problem is that the parish record is a chronological record, so entries are exected to be in chronological order. The entry prior to this one is dated 20 October.

That leads to my question: is there any scenario were Michaelmas comes after 20 October in 1767 in Norway?

Victor


--
Amos Shapir
 
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Re: Michaelmas dates

Michael Ossipoff
In reply to this post by Victor Engel
This email originated from outside ECU.

Speaking of church-holidays, I've heard that Saint Briget's Day (Februarius 1st) is at a time that was anciently a celebration of the pre-Roman Celtic goddess Brigde.    ...and that her name and (approximate) day were appropriated by the church.

I'd previously heard that of course that was the case with the pre-Roman Yule, but I didn't know that that was done with other pre-Roman seasonal-observances.

7 W
Aquarius 17th
Februarius 5th

On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 7:38 PM Victor Engel <[hidden email]> wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

Dear Calendar people,

Today I've been spending some time working on my family tree in a particular family. It seems there are two people named Sissela, daughter of Svend Spidsøen, born a bit more than a year apart. In fact the gap between them is about the same as the gap between my older brother and me, so it's possible for them to be sisters.

In Norway, it is common practice to name children after ancestors or deceased spouses or children. So an idea I had was that the first one born died before the second one was born. But I couldn't find a death record in the range between the two births (actually birth dates are not recorded - only baptism dates).

In any case, one of the girls was baptized 14 Jun 1766. The other was born on Fes. Michaelis 1767. There was a feast day reduction act in Norway in 1770 that eliminated this feast, which encyclopedias give as 29 September or the nearest Sunday. I see wikipedia also gives 10 or 11 October for Old Michelmas.

The problem is that the parish record is a chronological record, so entries are exected to be in chronological order. The entry prior to this one is dated 20 October.

That leads to my question: is there any scenario were Michaelmas comes after 20 October in 1767 in Norway?

Victor
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Re: Michaelmas dates

Walter J Ziobro
In reply to this post by Victor Engel
This email originated from outside ECU.

Dear Michael

IMO you are correct The Church appropriated pagan celebrations of both seasonal and quarter dates and Christianized them

We have Christmas near the south solstice And Easter near the northward equinox But also John the Baptist at the north solstice and Michaelmass near the southward equinox

But we also have quarter days that have been Chritianized Candlemas in February, Mayday, Lammas, feast of the Transfiguration in August, and All Saints Day in November

WalterZiobro




On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

This email originated from outside ECU.

Speaking of church-holidays, I've heard that Saint Briget's Day (Februarius 1st) is at a time that was anciently a celebration of the pre-Roman Celtic goddess Brigde.    ...and that her name and (approximate) day were appropriated by the church.

I'd previously heard that of course that was the case with the pre-Roman Yule, but I didn't know that that was done with other pre-Roman seasonal-observances.

7 W
Aquarius 17th
Februarius 5th

On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 7:38 PM Victor Engel <[hidden email]> wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

Dear Calendar people,

Today I've been spending some time working on my family tree in a particular family. It seems there are two people named Sissela, daughter of Svend Spidsøen, born a bit more than a year apart. In fact the gap between them is about the same as the gap between my older brother and me, so it's possible for them to be sisters.

In Norway, it is common practice to name children after ancestors or deceased spouses or children. So an idea I had was that the first one born died before the second one was born. But I couldn't find a death record in the range between the two births (actually birth dates are not recorded - only baptism dates).

In any case, one of the girls was baptized 14 Jun 1766. The other was born on Fes. Michaelis 1767. There was a feast day reduction act in Norway in 1770 that eliminated this feast, which encyclopedias give as 29 September or the nearest Sunday. I see wikipedia also gives 10 or 11 October for Old Michelmas.

The problem is that the parish record is a chronological record, so entries are exected to be in chronological order. The entry prior to this one is dated 20 October.

That leads to my question: is there any scenario were Michaelmas comes after 20 October in 1767 in Norway?

Victor
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Re: Michaelmas dates

David Peterson-9
In reply to this post by Victor Engel
This email originated from outside ECU.

Victor: 

In my own Scandinavian family research, I have found that you cannot assume that the christening record is absolutely chronological. For the most part, it is chronological, but there are always exceptions. I have certainly encountered scenarios where the child's christening (which may have been one done at home and reported later) is entered at a later position in the book. I can guess at various other reasons for this, but it possible that you are seeing such a situation and later entry.

David Peterson



On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 4:38 PM Victor Engel <[hidden email]> wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

Dear Calendar people,

Today I've been spending some time working on my family tree in a particular family. It seems there are two people named Sissela, daughter of Svend Spidsøen, born a bit more than a year apart. In fact the gap between them is about the same as the gap between my older brother and me, so it's possible for them to be sisters.

In Norway, it is common practice to name children after ancestors or deceased spouses or children. So an idea I had was that the first one born died before the second one was born. But I couldn't find a death record in the range between the two births (actually birth dates are not recorded - only baptism dates).

In any case, one of the girls was baptized 14 Jun 1766. The other was born on Fes. Michaelis 1767. There was a feast day reduction act in Norway in 1770 that eliminated this feast, which encyclopedias give as 29 September or the nearest Sunday. I see wikipedia also gives 10 or 11 October for Old Michelmas.

The problem is that the parish record is a chronological record, so entries are exected to be in chronological order. The entry prior to this one is dated 20 October.

That leads to my question: is there any scenario were Michaelmas comes after 20 October in 1767 in Norway?

Victor
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Re: Michaelmas dates

Victor Engel
This email originated from outside ECU.

I thought of that. Usually it happens when the baptism happens at home and is later blessed by the priest when he makes his rounds.

On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 12:53 AM David Peterson <[hidden email]> wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

Victor: 

In my own Scandinavian family research, I have found that you cannot assume that the christening record is absolutely chronological. For the most part, it is chronological, but there are always exceptions. I have certainly encountered scenarios where the child's christening (which may have been one done at home and reported later) is entered at a later position in the book. I can guess at various other reasons for this, but it possible that you are seeing such a situation and later entry.

David Peterson



On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 4:38 PM Victor Engel <[hidden email]> wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

Dear Calendar people,

Today I've been spending some time working on my family tree in a particular family. It seems there are two people named Sissela, daughter of Svend Spidsøen, born a bit more than a year apart. In fact the gap between them is about the same as the gap between my older brother and me, so it's possible for them to be sisters.

In Norway, it is common practice to name children after ancestors or deceased spouses or children. So an idea I had was that the first one born died before the second one was born. But I couldn't find a death record in the range between the two births (actually birth dates are not recorded - only baptism dates).

In any case, one of the girls was baptized 14 Jun 1766. The other was born on Fes. Michaelis 1767. There was a feast day reduction act in Norway in 1770 that eliminated this feast, which encyclopedias give as 29 September or the nearest Sunday. I see wikipedia also gives 10 or 11 October for Old Michelmas.

The problem is that the parish record is a chronological record, so entries are exected to be in chronological order. The entry prior to this one is dated 20 October.

That leads to my question: is there any scenario were Michaelmas comes after 20 October in 1767 in Norway?

Victor
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13520.11.18 - Re: Michaelmas dates

Litmus A Freeman
In reply to this post by Walter J Ziobro
This email originated from outside ECU.

18 Aquarius♒ 13520 UCC

Dear Walter, Michael and calendar people

Yes, I agreed. As far as I could tell from my research all the ancient Quarter and Cross Quarter day festivals were "hijacked" by religion for their own purposes.

There were 8 "Fire Festivals" in the ancient Celtic Druidic year which took place on the nearest full moon to the Season starts and Mid Season points, at the Equinoxes & Solstices and at the mid points between them. It's known as "The Eight Fold Year" and it was one of my first inspirations for creating the UCC, having read about it in a book about "Bards, Ovates & Druids". I have these 8 festivals in the UCC at their appropriate places in the Triad Months and the Zodiac.

We have just passed the Mid Season Festival of Aquarius♒, which is at the middle of the middle Triad Month of the last Quarter Season (Quarter 4) of the Year. There is a page about this on the UCC Website here:

https://universalcelestialcalendar.com/festivals-8-midseasonQ4.htm

This time is known as "Imbolc" in the 'pagan' system and celebrates the ending of northern Winter and the coming of northern Spring. It is also the time of "Groundhog Day" in the northern US as I'm sure you are all aware!

I have some more info about this aspect of the calendar on the UCC Wiki Page here:

https://universalcelestialcalendar.com/Universal%20Community%20Calendar%20Wiki.backup.html#Eight_Seasonal_Festivals

https://universalcelestialcalendar.com/Universal%20Community%20Calendar%20Wiki.backup.html#More_About_Festivals

I am currently in Portugal, where they celebrate many of these times as Saints Days from the Roman Catholic system as Walter has pointed out, with "Sao Joao" (Saint John) at the Nolstice/Cancer♋ Solstice being one of their major annual celebrations, as it also is in many Celtic parts of northern Spain such as Galicia

Regards

Litmus

-----------------------
Litmus A Freeman
Creator of the Universal Celestial Calendar
www.universalcelestialcalendar.com
On 2/6/20 4:14 AM, Walter J Ziobro wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

Dear Michael

IMO you are correct The Church appropriated pagan celebrations of both seasonal and quarter dates and Christianized them

We have Christmas near the south solstice And Easter near the northward equinox But also John the Baptist at the north solstice and Michaelmass near the southward equinox

But we also have quarter days that have been Chritianized Candlemas in February, Mayday, Lammas, feast of the Transfiguration in August, and All Saints Day in November

WalterZiobro




On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

This email originated from outside ECU.

Speaking of church-holidays, I've heard that Saint Briget's Day (Februarius 1st) is at a time that was anciently a celebration of the pre-Roman Celtic goddess Brigde.    ...and that her name and (approximate) day were appropriated by the church.

I'd previously heard that of course that was the case with the pre-Roman Yule, but I didn't know that that was done with other pre-Roman seasonal-observances.

7 W
Aquarius 17th
Februarius 5th

On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 7:38 PM Victor Engel <[hidden email]> wrote:
This email originated from outside ECU.

Dear Calendar people,

Today I've been spending some time working on my family tree in a particular family. It seems there are two people named Sissela, daughter of Svend Spidsøen, born a bit more than a year apart. In fact the gap between them is about the same as the gap between my older brother and me, so it's possible for them to be sisters.

In Norway, it is common practice to name children after ancestors or deceased spouses or children. So an idea I had was that the first one born died before the second one was born. But I couldn't find a death record in the range between the two births (actually birth dates are not recorded - only baptism dates).

In any case, one of the girls was baptized 14 Jun 1766. The other was born on Fes. Michaelis 1767. There was a feast day reduction act in Norway in 1770 that eliminated this feast, which encyclopedias give as 29 September or the nearest Sunday. I see wikipedia also gives 10 or 11 October for Old Michelmas.

The problem is that the parish record is a chronological record, so entries are exected to be in chronological order. The entry prior to this one is dated 20 October.

That leads to my question: is there any scenario were Michaelmas comes after 20 October in 1767 in Norway?

Victor