Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

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Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

Michael Ossipoff

1. Usually when I mention 28X13,  people’s main objection is to the 13 months. 

.

2. I’ve long been saying that it seems to me that, in addition to the familiar four seasons, there are Pre-Spring and Pre-Autumn.   …which aren’t quite Spring and Autumn, but are different from Winter and Summer, and clearly on the way to Spring and Autumn.

.

28X13 has that extra month that gives it an odd number of months, and the unpopular number of 13 months. Then why not use that extra 28 days for Pre-Spring and Pre-Autumn.

.

That modification of 28X13 I’ll call “28&14”.

.

With the 2-to-1 length-ratio of its year-divisions, how is 28&14 better than 28,35,28?   It makes sense seasonally, as mentioned above. Yes, the 2-to-1 length-ratio would complicate pay periods, but I only suggest 28&14 for a Utopian Epoch—something not likely to ever be—a time when the changes are so big that convenience of pay-period-uniformity might not be so high among priorities, but when radically ideal changes, such as a good seasonal-calendar, become desirable.

.

With 28&14, with 3-month Winter, Spring, Summer and Autumn; and 14-day Pre-Spring and Pre-Autumn; and with the year beginning when Winter starts at the Winter-Solstice,  then Pre-Spring coincides closely with the last half of Roman March.   …in good agreement with that I’d call Pre-Spring.

.

With 28&14, starting on the Winter-Solstice, the time-lag between winter-solstice and mid-winter, and the time-lag between summer-solstice and mid-summer, is only 42 days. 

.

That’s only 4 days more than the 38-day seasonal time-lag that I determined for a mid-lat West-Coast location.

.

In comparison, with four equal 91-day seasons, starting on the Winter-Solstice, that difference would be 7.5 days instead of 4 days.   …more by a factor of 7.5/4 = 1.875

.

The 3-month seasons’ starting dates, when expressed in terms of our familiar Roman months’ dates, coincide well what we all regard as the meanings for the seasons’ names.

.

Because I’d only suggest 28&14 for a Utopian Epoch, I’d suggest that it have all the seasonal features of the French Republican Calendar (…which I’ll abbreviate “FR”), which I really like for a Utopian Epoch.

.

Of course a disadvantage of FR is that its 10-day week makes observance of the Sabbath very difficult, and so its abrupt elimination of the 7-day week wouldn’t be fair to members of religions that value the Sabbath.  Even worse is the fact that the designers of FR were explicit about that being an intent of theirs. 28&14, which would keep the 7-day week, wouldn’t have that disadvantage.

.

For a Utopian-Epoch, when it might be desired to not unnecessarily keep features of the bad-old-days,  I don’t suppose that people would want a year-start rule that depends on the old Gregorian leapyear rule, and so I’d suggest Minimum-Displacement as 28&14’s leapyear-rule.

.

What today’s date would be, with 28&14, would depend on the choice of epoch, and the choice of the parameters for Minimum-Displacement. 

.

To avoid those variables for now, I’d rather, for speaking of 28&14 for the time-being, give 28&14 a kind of Nearest-Monday year-start rule that starts the year on the Monday that’s closest to the (midnight-to-midnight) day on the Greenwich Meridian on which the Winter-Solstice occurs.  I’ll call that “28&14 wsnm”, where wsnm stands for “Winter-Solstice-Nearest-Monday”

.

In fact, for that matter, 28&14 wsnm might be a good proposal possibility, competitive with 28&14’s Minimum-Displacement version.

.

For FR:

.

I’d refer to two versions of FR:  FR ae, with FR’s originally-defined start (with a “1” day-of-the-week) on the midnight-to-midnight day in Paris on which the Autumnal-Equinox occurs; and FR aen1, that keeps an unchanging sequence of the days-of-the week, and starts the year on the “1” that’s closest to the  midnight-to-midnight day in Paris on which the Autumnal-Equinox occurs.

.

I should call 30,30,31 with Nearest-Monday “30,20,21 G1nm”, instead of “30,30,30 lwnm”, because 1) “Nearest-Monday implies leapweek, so “lw” isn’t needed: and 2) for consistency with the naming that I use in this post. “G1” stands for the first day of the year given by the Gregorian leapyear-rule.

.

I should also distinguish between two versions of the Nearest-Monday (or “Nearest [whatever the 1st day of the week is called]”):

.

For the usual Nearest-Monday with respect to the Gregorian leapyear-system, of course I’d use it exactly as I’ve defined it, and as it’s used in ISOWeekDate.

.

Because FR, as it was used, starts its year with the day that contains the Autumnal-Equinox (even if that equinox occurs just before midnight), then, in the spirit of that rule, I use Nearest-1st-Week-Day as follows, with FR:

.

The year starts at midnight of the “One” that is closest to the day that contains the vernal equinox. (…where “One” is the name of the first day of the week.)  

.

For any _other_ use of Nearest Monday based on a solstice or equinox, I’d start the year on the Monday-starting midnight that’s closest to that equinox or solstice.  (For different weeks, substitute “first day of the week” for “Monday”).  That system is more accurate, for a Nearest-Monday system based on a solstice or equinox.

.

By the way, regarding the seasonal re-naming of months:  With a system of 12 nearly-equal months, I’d use the following month-names:

.

Winter, Pre-Spring, Spring, Summer, Pre-Autumn, Autumn

.

…or, for International use:

.

South, Pre-Northward, Northward, North, Pre-Southward, Southward.

.

That’s how I’d seasonally-rename the months in 30,30,31, or in an otherwise-unchanged Roman-Gregorian Calendar.

.

My posts don’t usually havae a signature-date, because no one of the various calendars is favorite to me, or my one proposal.

.

The widespread government, business and school use of ISO WeekDate (and calendars similar to it), and the widespread use of weekly desk-calendars, suggests that ISO WeekDate could have a chance.   The reform-calendar that I’ve gotten the best acceptance of is 30,30,31 G1nm.     …and Hanke & Henry’s proposal of it has gotten a little favorable media attention (but nevertheless practically no one has heard of it).

.

For a Utopian Epoch, I guess my first suggestion would be 28&14 wsnm with seasonal month-naming--or 28&14 with Minimum-Displacement…but, who knows, maybe people would prefer that it be based on the Summer-Solstice instead of the Winter Solstice. That was the ancient Egyptians’ year-start.

.

My first suggestion would be 28&14 instead of 30X12, because a 10-day week would make things difficult for people to whom the Sabbath is important. Of course who knows what people would prefer at that hypothetical Utopian Epoch.

.

Michael Ossipoff

.

Autumn2 24th 2018  (28&14 wsnm)

.

…or Southward2 24th 2018

.

2018-W47-4 (ISO WeekDate)

.

November 23, 2018 (30,30,31 G1nm)

.

…or Autum2 23

.

.…or Southward2 23

.

Frimaire 1 CCXXVII (FR ae)

.

(To most accurately show FR’s seasonal statement, and because no one’s work or school schedule is being affected, I stated that date by FR ae instead of by FR aen1 or the arithmetical leapyear-rule that was proposed, but not used, for FR.)



 

 

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Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

Michael Ossipoff

It has just occurred to me that signatures are often hidden when a mailer displays an e-mail.  For that reason, below my signature isn't a good place to write today's date in those four alternative calendars.


For that reason, I'm posting today's date in those four calendars in this separate post.


(Today's Roman-Gregorian date is 11/22/18.)


Autumn2 24th 2018  (28&14 wsnm)

.

…or Southward2 24th 2018

.

2018-W47-4 (ISO WeekDate)

.

November 23, 2018 (30,30,31 G1nm)

.

…or Autum2 23

.

.…or Southward2 23

.

Frimaire 1 CCXXVII (FR ae)

.

(To most accurately show FR’s seasonal statement, and because no one’s work or school schedule is being affected, I stated that date by FR ae instead of by FR aen1 or the arithmetical leapyear-rule that was proposed, but not used, for FR.)


Michael Ossipoff



On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 12:45 PM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

1. Usually when I mention 28X13,  people’s main objection is to the 13 months. 

.

2. I’ve long been saying that it seems to me that, in addition to the familiar four seasons, there are Pre-Spring and Pre-Autumn.   …which aren’t quite Spring and Autumn, but are different from Winter and Summer, and clearly on the way to Spring and Autumn.

.

28X13 has that extra month that gives it an odd number of months, and the unpopular number of 13 months. Then why not use that extra 28 days for Pre-Spring and Pre-Autumn.

.

That modification of 28X13 I’ll call “28&14”.

.

With the 2-to-1 length-ratio of its year-divisions, how is 28&14 better than 28,35,28?   It makes sense seasonally, as mentioned above. Yes, the 2-to-1 length-ratio would complicate pay periods, but I only suggest 28&14 for a Utopian Epoch—something not likely to ever be—a time when the changes are so big that convenience of pay-period-uniformity might not be so high among priorities, but when radically ideal changes, such as a good seasonal-calendar, become desirable.

.

With 28&14, with 3-month Winter, Spring, Summer and Autumn; and 14-day Pre-Spring and Pre-Autumn; and with the year beginning when Winter starts at the Winter-Solstice,  then Pre-Spring coincides closely with the last half of Roman March.   …in good agreement with that I’d call Pre-Spring.

.

With 28&14, starting on the Winter-Solstice, the time-lag between winter-solstice and mid-winter, and the time-lag between summer-solstice and mid-summer, is only 42 days. 

.

That’s only 4 days more than the 38-day seasonal time-lag that I determined for a mid-lat West-Coast location.

.

In comparison, with four equal 91-day seasons, starting on the Winter-Solstice, that difference would be 7.5 days instead of 4 days.   …more by a factor of 7.5/4 = 1.875

.

The 3-month seasons’ starting dates, when expressed in terms of our familiar Roman months’ dates, coincide well what we all regard as the meanings for the seasons’ names.

.

Because I’d only suggest 28&14 for a Utopian Epoch, I’d suggest that it have all the seasonal features of the French Republican Calendar (…which I’ll abbreviate “FR”), which I really like for a Utopian Epoch.

.

Of course a disadvantage of FR is that its 10-day week makes observance of the Sabbath very difficult, and so its abrupt elimination of the 7-day week wouldn’t be fair to members of religions that value the Sabbath.  Even worse is the fact that the designers of FR were explicit about that being an intent of theirs. 28&14, which would keep the 7-day week, wouldn’t have that disadvantage.

.

For a Utopian-Epoch, when it might be desired to not unnecessarily keep features of the bad-old-days,  I don’t suppose that people would want a year-start rule that depends on the old Gregorian leapyear rule, and so I’d suggest Minimum-Displacement as 28&14’s leapyear-rule.

.

What today’s date would be, with 28&14, would depend on the choice of epoch, and the choice of the parameters for Minimum-Displacement. 

.

To avoid those variables for now, I’d rather, for speaking of 28&14 for the time-being, give 28&14 a kind of Nearest-Monday year-start rule that starts the year on the Monday that’s closest to the (midnight-to-midnight) day on the Greenwich Meridian on which the Winter-Solstice occurs.  I’ll call that “28&14 wsnm”, where wsnm stands for “Winter-Solstice-Nearest-Monday”

.

In fact, for that matter, 28&14 wsnm might be a good proposal possibility, competitive with 28&14’s Minimum-Displacement version.

.

For FR:

.

I’d refer to two versions of FR:  FR ae, with FR’s originally-defined start (with a “1” day-of-the-week) on the midnight-to-midnight day in Paris on which the Autumnal-Equinox occurs; and FR aen1, that keeps an unchanging sequence of the days-of-the week, and starts the year on the “1” that’s closest to the  midnight-to-midnight day in Paris on which the Autumnal-Equinox occurs.

.

I should call 30,30,31 with Nearest-Monday “30,20,21 G1nm”, instead of “30,30,30 lwnm”, because 1) “Nearest-Monday implies leapweek, so “lw” isn’t needed: and 2) for consistency with the naming that I use in this post. “G1” stands for the first day of the year given by the Gregorian leapyear-rule.

.

I should also distinguish between two versions of the Nearest-Monday (or “Nearest [whatever the 1st day of the week is called]”):

.

For the usual Nearest-Monday with respect to the Gregorian leapyear-system, of course I’d use it exactly as I’ve defined it, and as it’s used in ISOWeekDate.

.

Because FR, as it was used, starts its year with the day that contains the Autumnal-Equinox (even if that equinox occurs just before midnight), then, in the spirit of that rule, I use Nearest-1st-Week-Day as follows, with FR:

.

The year starts at midnight of the “One” that is closest to the day that contains the vernal equinox. (…where “One” is the name of the first day of the week.)  

.

For any _other_ use of Nearest Monday based on a solstice or equinox, I’d start the year on the Monday-starting midnight that’s closest to that equinox or solstice.  (For different weeks, substitute “first day of the week” for “Monday”).  That system is more accurate, for a Nearest-Monday system based on a solstice or equinox.

.

By the way, regarding the seasonal re-naming of months:  With a system of 12 nearly-equal months, I’d use the following month-names:

.

Winter, Pre-Spring, Spring, Summer, Pre-Autumn, Autumn

.

…or, for International use:

.

South, Pre-Northward, Northward, North, Pre-Southward, Southward.

.

That’s how I’d seasonally-rename the months in 30,30,31, or in an otherwise-unchanged Roman-Gregorian Calendar.

.

My posts don’t usually havae a signature-date, because no one of the various calendars is favorite to me, or my one proposal.

.

The widespread government, business and school use of ISO WeekDate (and calendars similar to it), and the widespread use of weekly desk-calendars, suggests that ISO WeekDate could have a chance.   The reform-calendar that I’ve gotten the best acceptance of is 30,30,31 G1nm.     …and Hanke & Henry’s proposal of it has gotten a little favorable media attention (but nevertheless practically no one has heard of it).

.

For a Utopian Epoch, I guess my first suggestion would be 28&14 wsnm with seasonal month-naming--or 28&14 with Minimum-Displacement…but, who knows, maybe people would prefer that it be based on the Summer-Solstice instead of the Winter Solstice. That was the ancient Egyptians’ year-start.

.

My first suggestion would be 28&14 instead of 30X12, because a 10-day week would make things difficult for people to whom the Sabbath is important. Of course who knows what people would prefer at that hypothetical Utopian Epoch.

.

Michael Ossipoff

.

Autumn2 24th 2018  (28&14 wsnm)

.

…or Southward2 24th 2018

.

2018-W47-4 (ISO WeekDate)

.

November 23, 2018 (30,30,31 G1nm)

.

…or Autum2 23

.

.…or Southward2 23

.

Frimaire 1 CCXXVII (FR ae)

.

(To most accurately show FR’s seasonal statement, and because no one’s work or school schedule is being affected, I stated that date by FR ae instead of by FR aen1 or the arithmetical leapyear-rule that was proposed, but not used, for FR.)



 

 

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Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

Michael Ossipoff
It isn't unusual for a long document to have things that weren't said as intended. One correction needed:

Regarding seasonal-month-naming for calendars with 12 (at least roughly) equal months, here's what I meant to say.

A season's number of months is in parentheses after the name of the season:

Seasonal month names for 12 at least roughly equal months:

Winter (3), Pre-Spring (1), Spring (2), Summer (3), Pre-Autumn (1), Autumn (2),

or, for International use:

South (3), Pre-Northward (1), Northward (2), North (3), Pre-Southward (1), Southward (2)

Michael Ossipoff




On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 1:18 PM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

It has just occurred to me that signatures are often hidden when a mailer displays an e-mail.  For that reason, below my signature isn't a good place to write today's date in those four alternative calendars.


For that reason, I'm posting today's date in those four calendars in this separate post.


(Today's Roman-Gregorian date is 11/22/18.)


Autumn2 24th 2018  (28&14 wsnm)

.

…or Southward2 24th 2018

.

2018-W47-4 (ISO WeekDate)

.

November 23, 2018 (30,30,31 G1nm)

.

…or Autum2 23

.

.…or Southward2 23

.

Frimaire 1 CCXXVII (FR ae)

.

(To most accurately show FR’s seasonal statement, and because no one’s work or school schedule is being affected, I stated that date by FR ae instead of by FR aen1 or the arithmetical leapyear-rule that was proposed, but not used, for FR.)


Michael Ossipoff



On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 12:45 PM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

1. Usually when I mention 28X13,  people’s main objection is to the 13 months. 

.

2. I’ve long been saying that it seems to me that, in addition to the familiar four seasons, there are Pre-Spring and Pre-Autumn.   …which aren’t quite Spring and Autumn, but are different from Winter and Summer, and clearly on the way to Spring and Autumn.

.

28X13 has that extra month that gives it an odd number of months, and the unpopular number of 13 months. Then why not use that extra 28 days for Pre-Spring and Pre-Autumn.

.

That modification of 28X13 I’ll call “28&14”.

.

With the 2-to-1 length-ratio of its year-divisions, how is 28&14 better than 28,35,28?   It makes sense seasonally, as mentioned above. Yes, the 2-to-1 length-ratio would complicate pay periods, but I only suggest 28&14 for a Utopian Epoch—something not likely to ever be—a time when the changes are so big that convenience of pay-period-uniformity might not be so high among priorities, but when radically ideal changes, such as a good seasonal-calendar, become desirable.

.

With 28&14, with 3-month Winter, Spring, Summer and Autumn; and 14-day Pre-Spring and Pre-Autumn; and with the year beginning when Winter starts at the Winter-Solstice,  then Pre-Spring coincides closely with the last half of Roman March.   …in good agreement with that I’d call Pre-Spring.

.

With 28&14, starting on the Winter-Solstice, the time-lag between winter-solstice and mid-winter, and the time-lag between summer-solstice and mid-summer, is only 42 days. 

.

That’s only 4 days more than the 38-day seasonal time-lag that I determined for a mid-lat West-Coast location.

.

In comparison, with four equal 91-day seasons, starting on the Winter-Solstice, that difference would be 7.5 days instead of 4 days.   …more by a factor of 7.5/4 = 1.875

.

The 3-month seasons’ starting dates, when expressed in terms of our familiar Roman months’ dates, coincide well what we all regard as the meanings for the seasons’ names.

.

Because I’d only suggest 28&14 for a Utopian Epoch, I’d suggest that it have all the seasonal features of the French Republican Calendar (…which I’ll abbreviate “FR”), which I really like for a Utopian Epoch.

.

Of course a disadvantage of FR is that its 10-day week makes observance of the Sabbath very difficult, and so its abrupt elimination of the 7-day week wouldn’t be fair to members of religions that value the Sabbath.  Even worse is the fact that the designers of FR were explicit about that being an intent of theirs. 28&14, which would keep the 7-day week, wouldn’t have that disadvantage.

.

For a Utopian-Epoch, when it might be desired to not unnecessarily keep features of the bad-old-days,  I don’t suppose that people would want a year-start rule that depends on the old Gregorian leapyear rule, and so I’d suggest Minimum-Displacement as 28&14’s leapyear-rule.

.

What today’s date would be, with 28&14, would depend on the choice of epoch, and the choice of the parameters for Minimum-Displacement. 

.

To avoid those variables for now, I’d rather, for speaking of 28&14 for the time-being, give 28&14 a kind of Nearest-Monday year-start rule that starts the year on the Monday that’s closest to the (midnight-to-midnight) day on the Greenwich Meridian on which the Winter-Solstice occurs.  I’ll call that “28&14 wsnm”, where wsnm stands for “Winter-Solstice-Nearest-Monday”

.

In fact, for that matter, 28&14 wsnm might be a good proposal possibility, competitive with 28&14’s Minimum-Displacement version.

.

For FR:

.

I’d refer to two versions of FR:  FR ae, with FR’s originally-defined start (with a “1” day-of-the-week) on the midnight-to-midnight day in Paris on which the Autumnal-Equinox occurs; and FR aen1, that keeps an unchanging sequence of the days-of-the week, and starts the year on the “1” that’s closest to the  midnight-to-midnight day in Paris on which the Autumnal-Equinox occurs.

.

I should call 30,30,31 with Nearest-Monday “30,20,21 G1nm”, instead of “30,30,30 lwnm”, because 1) “Nearest-Monday implies leapweek, so “lw” isn’t needed: and 2) for consistency with the naming that I use in this post. “G1” stands for the first day of the year given by the Gregorian leapyear-rule.

.

I should also distinguish between two versions of the Nearest-Monday (or “Nearest [whatever the 1st day of the week is called]”):

.

For the usual Nearest-Monday with respect to the Gregorian leapyear-system, of course I’d use it exactly as I’ve defined it, and as it’s used in ISOWeekDate.

.

Because FR, as it was used, starts its year with the day that contains the Autumnal-Equinox (even if that equinox occurs just before midnight), then, in the spirit of that rule, I use Nearest-1st-Week-Day as follows, with FR:

.

The year starts at midnight of the “One” that is closest to the day that contains the vernal equinox. (…where “One” is the name of the first day of the week.)  

.

For any _other_ use of Nearest Monday based on a solstice or equinox, I’d start the year on the Monday-starting midnight that’s closest to that equinox or solstice.  (For different weeks, substitute “first day of the week” for “Monday”).  That system is more accurate, for a Nearest-Monday system based on a solstice or equinox.

.

By the way, regarding the seasonal re-naming of months:  With a system of 12 nearly-equal months, I’d use the following month-names:

.

Winter, Pre-Spring, Spring, Summer, Pre-Autumn, Autumn

.

…or, for International use:

.

South, Pre-Northward, Northward, North, Pre-Southward, Southward.

.

That’s how I’d seasonally-rename the months in 30,30,31, or in an otherwise-unchanged Roman-Gregorian Calendar.

.

My posts don’t usually havae a signature-date, because no one of the various calendars is favorite to me, or my one proposal.

.

The widespread government, business and school use of ISO WeekDate (and calendars similar to it), and the widespread use of weekly desk-calendars, suggests that ISO WeekDate could have a chance.   The reform-calendar that I’ve gotten the best acceptance of is 30,30,31 G1nm.     …and Hanke & Henry’s proposal of it has gotten a little favorable media attention (but nevertheless practically no one has heard of it).

.

For a Utopian Epoch, I guess my first suggestion would be 28&14 wsnm with seasonal month-naming--or 28&14 with Minimum-Displacement…but, who knows, maybe people would prefer that it be based on the Summer-Solstice instead of the Winter Solstice. That was the ancient Egyptians’ year-start.

.

My first suggestion would be 28&14 instead of 30X12, because a 10-day week would make things difficult for people to whom the Sabbath is important. Of course who knows what people would prefer at that hypothetical Utopian Epoch.

.

Michael Ossipoff

.

Autumn2 24th 2018  (28&14 wsnm)

.

…or Southward2 24th 2018

.

2018-W47-4 (ISO WeekDate)

.

November 23, 2018 (30,30,31 G1nm)

.

…or Autum2 23

.

.…or Southward2 23

.

Frimaire 1 CCXXVII (FR ae)

.

(To most accurately show FR’s seasonal statement, and because no one’s work or school schedule is being affected, I stated that date by FR ae instead of by FR aen1 or the arithmetical leapyear-rule that was proposed, but not used, for FR.)



 

 

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Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

Peter Meyer
In reply to this post by Michael Ossipoff
Michael said:

> A season's number of months is in parentheses after the name of the season:
> Seasonal month names for 12 at least roughly equal months:
> Winter (3), Pre-Spring (1), Spring (2), Summer (3), Pre-Autumn (1), Autumn
> (2),

Are you aware that the usual four European/U.S. seasons, Winter,
Spring, Summer and Autumn, only occur in temperate climate zones?

> or, for International use:
> South (3), Pre-Northward (1), Northward (2), North (3), Pre-Southward (1),
> Southward (2)

I'm sure that will be well received internationally.

Regards,
Peter

P.S.  Better check the length of your messages, otherwise the next one
will be over 60 Kb.
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Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

k.palmen@btinternet.com
In reply to this post by Michael Ossipoff
Dear Michael and Calendar People

It looks like Michael is suggesting some kind of leap fortnight calendar. The years with a leap fortnight would occur once every 11 or 12 years with 11 much more common.

A 56-year cycle with 5 leap fortnights would have 4 11s and 1 12 and have a mean year of 365.25 days.
A 45-year cycle with 4 leap fortnights would have 3 11s and 1 12 and have a mean year of 365.244444... days.
A 34-year cycle with 3 leap fortnights would have 2 11s and 1 12 and have a mean year of 365.235294... days.

So an accurate calendar would have a mixture of 45-year or 34-year cycles and a minimum displacement calendar would automatically generate these.

Karl

Friday Delta November 2018


----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 22/11/2018 - 18:18 (GMT)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

It has just occurred to me that signatures are often hidden when a mailer displays an e-mail.  For that reason, below my signature isn't a good place to write today's date in those four alternative calendars.


For that reason, I'm posting today's date in those four calendars in this separate post.


(Today's Roman-Gregorian date is 11/22/18.)


Autumn2 24th 2018  (28&14 wsnm)

.

…or Southward2 24th 2018

.

2018-W47-4 (ISO WeekDate)

.

November 23, 2018 (30,30,31 G1nm)

.

…or Autum2 23

.

.…or Southward2 23

.

Frimaire 1 CCXXVII (FR ae)

.

(To most accurately show FR’s seasonal statement, and because no one’s work or school schedule is being affected, I stated that date by FR ae instead of by FR aen1 or the arithmetical leapyear-rule that was proposed, but not used, for FR.)


Michael Ossipoff



On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 12:45 PM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

1. Usually when I mention 28X13,  people’s main objection is to the 13 months. 

.

2. I’ve long been saying that it seems to me that, in addition to the familiar four seasons, there are Pre-Spring and Pre-Autumn.   …which aren’t quite Spring and Autumn, but are different from Winter and Summer, and clearly on the way to Spring and Autumn.

.

28X13 has that extra month that gives it an odd number of months, and the unpopular number of 13 months. Then why not use that extra 28 days for Pre-Spring and Pre-Autumn.

.

That modification of 28X13 I’ll call “28&14”.

.

With the 2-to-1 length-ratio of its year-divisions, how is 28&14 better than 28,35,28?   It makes sense seasonally, as mentioned above. Yes, the 2-to-1 length-ratio would complicate pay periods, but I only suggest 28&14 for a Utopian Epoch—something not likely to ever be—a time when the changes are so big that convenience of pay-period-uniformity might not be so high among priorities, but when radically ideal changes, such as a good seasonal-calendar, become desirable.

.

With 28&14, with 3-month Winter, Spring, Summer and Autumn; and 14-day Pre-Spring and Pre-Autumn; and with the year beginning when Winter starts at the Winter-Solstice,  then Pre-Spring coincides closely with the last half of Roman March.   …in good agreement with that I’d call Pre-Spring.

.

With 28&14, starting on the Winter-Solstice, the time-lag between winter-solstice and mid-winter, and the time-lag between summer-solstice and mid-summer, is only 42 days. 

.

That’s only 4 days more than the 38-day seasonal time-lag that I determined for a mid-lat West-Coast location.

.

In comparison, with four equal 91-day seasons, starting on the Winter-Solstice, that difference would be 7.5 days instead of 4 days.   …more by a factor of 7.5/4 = 1.875

.

The 3-month seasons’ starting dates, when expressed in terms of our familiar Roman months’ dates, coincide well what we all regard as the meanings for the seasons’ names.

.

Because I’d only suggest 28&14 for a Utopian Epoch, I’d suggest that it have all the seasonal features of the French Republican Calendar (…which I’ll abbreviate “FR”), which I really like for a Utopian Epoch.

.

Of course a disadvantage of FR is that its 10-day week makes observance of the Sabbath very difficult, and so its abrupt elimination of the 7-day week wouldn’t be fair to members of religions that value the Sabbath.  Even worse is the fact that the designers of FR were explicit about that being an intent of theirs. 28&14, which would keep the 7-day week, wouldn’t have that disadvantage.

.

For a Utopian-Epoch, when it might be desired to not unnecessarily keep features of the bad-old-days,  I don’t suppose that people would want a year-start rule that depends on the old Gregorian leapyear rule, and so I’d suggest Minimum-Displacement as 28&14’s leapyear-rule.

.

What today’s date would be, with 28&14, would depend on the choice of epoch, and the choice of the parameters for Minimum-Displacement. 

.

To avoid those variables for now, I’d rather, for speaking of 28&14 for the time-being, give 28&14 a kind of Nearest-Monday year-start rule that starts the year on the Monday that’s closest to the (midnight-to-midnight) day on the Greenwich Meridian on which the Winter-Solstice occurs.  I’ll call that “28&14 wsnm”, where wsnm stands for “Winter-Solstice-Nearest-Monday”

.

In fact, for that matter, 28&14 wsnm might be a good proposal possibility, competitive with 28&14’s Minimum-Displacement version.

.

For FR:

.

I’d refer to two versions of FR:  FR ae, with FR’s originally-defined start (with a “1” day-of-the-week) on the midnight-to-midnight day in Paris on which the Autumnal-Equinox occurs; and FR aen1, that keeps an unchanging sequence of the days-of-the week, and starts the year on the “1” that’s closest to the  midnight-to-midnight day in Paris on which the Autumnal-Equinox occurs.

.

I should call 30,30,31 with Nearest-Monday “30,20,21 G1nm”, instead of “30,30,30 lwnm”, because 1) “Nearest-Monday implies leapweek, so “lw” isn’t needed: and 2) for consistency with the naming that I use in this post. “G1” stands for the first day of the year given by the Gregorian leapyear-rule.

.

I should also distinguish between two versions of the Nearest-Monday (or “Nearest [whatever the 1st day of the week is called]”):

.

For the usual Nearest-Monday with respect to the Gregorian leapyear-system, of course I’d use it exactly as I’ve defined it, and as it’s used in ISOWeekDate.

.

Because FR, as it was used, starts its year with the day that contains the Autumnal-Equinox (even if that equinox occurs just before midnight), then, in the spirit of that rule, I use Nearest-1st-Week-Day as follows, with FR:

.

The year starts at midnight of the “One” that is closest to the day that contains the vernal equinox. (…where “One” is the name of the first day of the week.)  

.

For any _other_ use of Nearest Monday based on a solstice or equinox, I’d start the year on the Monday-starting midnight that’s closest to that equinox or solstice.  (For different weeks, substitute “first day of the week” for “Monday”).  That system is more accurate, for a Nearest-Monday system based on a solstice or equinox.

.

By the way, regarding the seasonal re-naming of months:  With a system of 12 nearly-equal months, I’d use the following month-names:

.

Winter, Pre-Spring, Spring, Summer, Pre-Autumn, Autumn

.

…or, for International use:

.

South, Pre-Northward, Northward, North, Pre-Southward, Southward.

.

That’s how I’d seasonally-rename the months in 30,30,31, or in an otherwise-unchanged Roman-Gregorian Calendar.

.

My posts don’t usually havae a signature-date, because no one of the various calendars is favorite to me, or my one proposal.

.

The widespread government, business and school use of ISO WeekDate (and calendars similar to it), and the widespread use of weekly desk-calendars, suggests that ISO WeekDate could have a chance.   The reform-calendar that I’ve gotten the best acceptance of is 30,30,31 G1nm.     …and Hanke & Henry’s proposal of it has gotten a little favorable media attention (but nevertheless practically no one has heard of it).

.

For a Utopian Epoch, I guess my first suggestion would be 28&14 wsnm with seasonal month-naming--or 28&14 with Minimum-Displacement…but, who knows, maybe people would prefer that it be based on the Summer-Solstice instead of the Winter Solstice. That was the ancient Egyptians’ year-start.

.

My first suggestion would be 28&14 instead of 30X12, because a 10-day week would make things difficult for people to whom the Sabbath is important. Of course who knows what people would prefer at that hypothetical Utopian Epoch.

.

Michael Ossipoff

.

Autumn2 24th 2018  (28&14 wsnm)

.

…or Southward2 24th 2018

.

2018-W47-4 (ISO WeekDate)

.

November 23, 2018 (30,30,31 G1nm)

.

…or Autum2 23

.

.…or Southward2 23

.

Frimaire 1 CCXXVII (FR ae)

.

(To most accurately show FR’s seasonal statement, and because no one’s work or school schedule is being affected, I stated that date by FR ae instead of by FR aen1 or the arithmetical leapyear-rule that was proposed, but not used, for FR.)



 

 



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Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

Michael Ossipoff

It looks like Michael is suggesting some kind of leap fortnight calendar.

It does?

Where does Karl get that?

For 28&14, I suggested the Minimum-Displacement leapyear rule, or else a year-start rule that starts the year on the Monday midnight closest to the Winter-Solstice.

(The latter is the one whose "Today's Date" I stated at the end of that post.)

I spoke of a 14-day year-division called "Pre-Spring" or "Pre-Autumn", but at no time did I designate it, or speak of it, as a leap-interval.

Michael Ossipoff 





On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 5:04 AM K PALMEN <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Michael and Calendar People

It looks like Michael is suggesting some kind of leap fortnight calendar. The years with a leap fortnight would occur once every 11 or 12 years with 11 much more common.

A 56-year cycle with 5 leap fortnights would have 4 11s and 1 12 and have a mean year of 365.25 days.
A 45-year cycle with 4 leap fortnights would have 3 11s and 1 12 and have a mean year of 365.244444... days.
A 34-year cycle with 3 leap fortnights would have 2 11s and 1 12 and have a mean year of 365.235294... days.

So an accurate calendar would have a mixture of 45-year or 34-year cycles and a minimum displacement calendar would automatically generate these.

Karl

Friday Delta November 2018


----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 22/11/2018 - 18:18 (GMT)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

It has just occurred to me that signatures are often hidden when a mailer displays an e-mail.  For that reason, below my signature isn't a good place to write today's date in those four alternative calendars.


For that reason, I'm posting today's date in those four calendars in this separate post.


(Today's Roman-Gregorian date is 11/22/18.)


Autumn2 24th 2018  (28&14 wsnm)

.

…or Southward2 24th 2018

.

2018-W47-4 (ISO WeekDate)

.

November 23, 2018 (30,30,31 G1nm)

.

…or Autum2 23

.

.…or Southward2 23

.

Frimaire 1 CCXXVII (FR ae)

.

(To most accurately show FR’s seasonal statement, and because no one’s work or school schedule is being affected, I stated that date by FR ae instead of by FR aen1 or the arithmetical leapyear-rule that was proposed, but not used, for FR.)


Michael Ossipoff



On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 12:45 PM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

1. Usually when I mention 28X13,  people’s main objection is to the 13 months. 

.

2. I’ve long been saying that it seems to me that, in addition to the familiar four seasons, there are Pre-Spring and Pre-Autumn.   …which aren’t quite Spring and Autumn, but are different from Winter and Summer, and clearly on the way to Spring and Autumn.

.

28X13 has that extra month that gives it an odd number of months, and the unpopular number of 13 months. Then why not use that extra 28 days for Pre-Spring and Pre-Autumn.

.

That modification of 28X13 I’ll call “28&14”.

.

With the 2-to-1 length-ratio of its year-divisions, how is 28&14 better than 28,35,28?   It makes sense seasonally, as mentioned above. Yes, the 2-to-1 length-ratio would complicate pay periods, but I only suggest 28&14 for a Utopian Epoch—something not likely to ever be—a time when the changes are so big that convenience of pay-period-uniformity might not be so high among priorities, but when radically ideal changes, such as a good seasonal-calendar, become desirable.

.

With 28&14, with 3-month Winter, Spring, Summer and Autumn; and 14-day Pre-Spring and Pre-Autumn; and with the year beginning when Winter starts at the Winter-Solstice,  then Pre-Spring coincides closely with the last half of Roman March.   …in good agreement with that I’d call Pre-Spring.

.

With 28&14, starting on the Winter-Solstice, the time-lag between winter-solstice and mid-winter, and the time-lag between summer-solstice and mid-summer, is only 42 days. 

.

That’s only 4 days more than the 38-day seasonal time-lag that I determined for a mid-lat West-Coast location.

.

In comparison, with four equal 91-day seasons, starting on the Winter-Solstice, that difference would be 7.5 days instead of 4 days.   …more by a factor of 7.5/4 = 1.875

.

The 3-month seasons’ starting dates, when expressed in terms of our familiar Roman months’ dates, coincide well what we all regard as the meanings for the seasons’ names.

.

Because I’d only suggest 28&14 for a Utopian Epoch, I’d suggest that it have all the seasonal features of the French Republican Calendar (…which I’ll abbreviate “FR”), which I really like for a Utopian Epoch.

.

Of course a disadvantage of FR is that its 10-day week makes observance of the Sabbath very difficult, and so its abrupt elimination of the 7-day week wouldn’t be fair to members of religions that value the Sabbath.  Even worse is the fact that the designers of FR were explicit about that being an intent of theirs. 28&14, which would keep the 7-day week, wouldn’t have that disadvantage.

.

For a Utopian-Epoch, when it might be desired to not unnecessarily keep features of the bad-old-days,  I don’t suppose that people would want a year-start rule that depends on the old Gregorian leapyear rule, and so I’d suggest Minimum-Displacement as 28&14’s leapyear-rule.

.

What today’s date would be, with 28&14, would depend on the choice of epoch, and the choice of the parameters for Minimum-Displacement. 

.

To avoid those variables for now, I’d rather, for speaking of 28&14 for the time-being, give 28&14 a kind of Nearest-Monday year-start rule that starts the year on the Monday that’s closest to the (midnight-to-midnight) day on the Greenwich Meridian on which the Winter-Solstice occurs.  I’ll call that “28&14 wsnm”, where wsnm stands for “Winter-Solstice-Nearest-Monday”

.

In fact, for that matter, 28&14 wsnm might be a good proposal possibility, competitive with 28&14’s Minimum-Displacement version.

.

For FR:

.

I’d refer to two versions of FR:  FR ae, with FR’s originally-defined start (with a “1” day-of-the-week) on the midnight-to-midnight day in Paris on which the Autumnal-Equinox occurs; and FR aen1, that keeps an unchanging sequence of the days-of-the week, and starts the year on the “1” that’s closest to the  midnight-to-midnight day in Paris on which the Autumnal-Equinox occurs.

.

I should call 30,30,31 with Nearest-Monday “30,20,21 G1nm”, instead of “30,30,30 lwnm”, because 1) “Nearest-Monday implies leapweek, so “lw” isn’t needed: and 2) for consistency with the naming that I use in this post. “G1” stands for the first day of the year given by the Gregorian leapyear-rule.

.

I should also distinguish between two versions of the Nearest-Monday (or “Nearest [whatever the 1st day of the week is called]”):

.

For the usual Nearest-Monday with respect to the Gregorian leapyear-system, of course I’d use it exactly as I’ve defined it, and as it’s used in ISOWeekDate.

.

Because FR, as it was used, starts its year with the day that contains the Autumnal-Equinox (even if that equinox occurs just before midnight), then, in the spirit of that rule, I use Nearest-1st-Week-Day as follows, with FR:

.

The year starts at midnight of the “One” that is closest to the day that contains the vernal equinox. (…where “One” is the name of the first day of the week.)  

.

For any _other_ use of Nearest Monday based on a solstice or equinox, I’d start the year on the Monday-starting midnight that’s closest to that equinox or solstice.  (For different weeks, substitute “first day of the week” for “Monday”).  That system is more accurate, for a Nearest-Monday system based on a solstice or equinox.

.

By the way, regarding the seasonal re-naming of months:  With a system of 12 nearly-equal months, I’d use the following month-names:

.

Winter, Pre-Spring, Spring, Summer, Pre-Autumn, Autumn

.

…or, for International use:

.

South, Pre-Northward, Northward, North, Pre-Southward, Southward.

.

That’s how I’d seasonally-rename the months in 30,30,31, or in an otherwise-unchanged Roman-Gregorian Calendar.

.

My posts don’t usually havae a signature-date, because no one of the various calendars is favorite to me, or my one proposal.

.

The widespread government, business and school use of ISO WeekDate (and calendars similar to it), and the widespread use of weekly desk-calendars, suggests that ISO WeekDate could have a chance.   The reform-calendar that I’ve gotten the best acceptance of is 30,30,31 G1nm.     …and Hanke & Henry’s proposal of it has gotten a little favorable media attention (but nevertheless practically no one has heard of it).

.

For a Utopian Epoch, I guess my first suggestion would be 28&14 wsnm with seasonal month-naming--or 28&14 with Minimum-Displacement…but, who knows, maybe people would prefer that it be based on the Summer-Solstice instead of the Winter Solstice. That was the ancient Egyptians’ year-start.

.

My first suggestion would be 28&14 instead of 30X12, because a 10-day week would make things difficult for people to whom the Sabbath is important. Of course who knows what people would prefer at that hypothetical Utopian Epoch.

.

Michael Ossipoff

.

Autumn2 24th 2018  (28&14 wsnm)

.

…or Southward2 24th 2018

.

2018-W47-4 (ISO WeekDate)

.

November 23, 2018 (30,30,31 G1nm)

.

…or Autum2 23

.

.…or Southward2 23

.

Frimaire 1 CCXXVII (FR ae)

.

(To most accurately show FR’s seasonal statement, and because no one’s work or school schedule is being affected, I stated that date by FR ae instead of by FR aen1 or the arithmetical leapyear-rule that was proposed, but not used, for FR.)



 

 



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Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

Michael Ossipoff
In reply to this post by Peter Meyer

[quote]

Michael said:
.

> A season's number of months is in parentheses after the name of the season:
> Seasonal month names for 12 at least roughly equal months:
> Winter (3), Pre-Spring (1), Spring (2), Summer (3), Pre-Autumn (1), Autumn
> (2),

.

Are you aware that the usual four European/U.S. seasons, Winter,
Spring, Summer and Autumn, only occur in temperate climate zones?

[/quote]

.

1. Is Peter aware that most people live in temperate-zones?

.

2. And people anywhere know what those season-terms mean in their region. (On the equator, people know that what is elsewhere called “Winter” and “Summer” mean that the Sun is less overhead, and that there’s less convection-caused rain.)

.

3. I was speaking of 6 seasons, not 4.

.

[quote]

> or, for International use:
> South (3), Pre-Northward (1), Northward (2), North (3), Pre-Southward (1),
> Southward (2)

.

I'm sure that will be well received internationally.

[/quote]

.

Premature sureness is an indication of …..some undesirable attribute.

.

You have no idea how calendar-proposals  would be received internationally.

.

There aren’t a whole lot of possibilities for an international seasonal calendar.

.

One good suggestion would be to keep months of approximately 30 days, as with 30,30,31 for example, and keep the Roman names for them.   …because anyone anywhere knows what kind weather typically can be expected when a particular Roman month arrives.

.

But if it were desired to make a complete break with the past, and not keep the Roman month names (or even 12 roughly equal months), then some sort of season-descriptive month-names would be called-for,  for a seasonal calendar with months.

.

If the Roman month-names (and maybe even 12 equal months) are abandoned, then what remains is the season-names.  But how would the seasons be named internationally, when they’re opposite north and south of the equator?

.

Solar declination is the obvious naming.

.

The seasons could be named according to the solar declination. 

.

I suggest that months could be named according to their order in a season. For instance, in some of the calendars whose “Today’s Dates” I posted yesterday, today’s date is in the month of Northward2 (Autumn2, north of the equator).

.

How well that would go over depends on when you’re proposing it for. If you’re saying that right now, people wouldn’t want to get rid of the Roman month-names, you’re probably right. That’s why I’d propose 30,30,31 with Roman month-names, and it’s why other 12-month calendars usually keep those month-names.

.

Whether or not people will want a seasonally month-named calendar anytime soon, how would I know? 

.

All that’s known is that evidently no one wants or cares about calendar-reform at all. What will “be well received”?  No calendar-reform is getting a good reception.  Practically no one cares about calendar-reform at all.

.

[quote]
P.S.  Better check the length of your messages, otherwise the next one
will be over 60 Kb.

[/quote]

.

Peter keeps harping on that.  I’ll remind Peter that including a long history of past messages in a conversation is a practice of mailers, not individuals. Presumably the mailers have that attribute because it’s assumed that people want a long history of past messages in a conversation. Maybe it’s felt that, if the past-message-history is “hidden”, then it won’t be a problem—except to Peter.

.

Peter forgets that, when I send, to the list, a message that has such a long history of past messages, that’s only because the person I’m replying to has also sent such a message to the list.

.

Peter also forgets that I’ve recently mostly been only copying the lines that I reply to.

.

Michael Ossipofff

 

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Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

Michael Ossipoff

I've often been calling the current season "Northward", when I meant "Southward".

That error was due to the fact that, though the solar-declination is changing in the southward direction, it's getting colder, and coldness is a northern experience in this hemisphere.

Michael Ossipoff

On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 10:08 AM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

[quote]

Michael said:
.

> A season's number of months is in parentheses after the name of the season:
> Seasonal month names for 12 at least roughly equal months:
> Winter (3), Pre-Spring (1), Spring (2), Summer (3), Pre-Autumn (1), Autumn
> (2),

.

Are you aware that the usual four European/U.S. seasons, Winter,
Spring, Summer and Autumn, only occur in temperate climate zones?

[/quote]

.

1. Is Peter aware that most people live in temperate-zones?

.

2. And people anywhere know what those season-terms mean in their region. (On the equator, people know that what is elsewhere called “Winter” and “Summer” mean that the Sun is less overhead, and that there’s less convection-caused rain.)

.

3. I was speaking of 6 seasons, not 4.

.

[quote]

> or, for International use:
> South (3), Pre-Northward (1), Northward (2), North (3), Pre-Southward (1),
> Southward (2)

.

I'm sure that will be well received internationally.

[/quote]

.

Premature sureness is an indication of …..some undesirable attribute.

.

You have no idea how calendar-proposals  would be received internationally.

.

There aren’t a whole lot of possibilities for an international seasonal calendar.

.

One good suggestion would be to keep months of approximately 30 days, as with 30,30,31 for example, and keep the Roman names for them.   …because anyone anywhere knows what kind weather typically can be expected when a particular Roman month arrives.

.

But if it were desired to make a complete break with the past, and not keep the Roman month names (or even 12 roughly equal months), then some sort of season-descriptive month-names would be called-for,  for a seasonal calendar with months.

.

If the Roman month-names (and maybe even 12 equal months) are abandoned, then what remains is the season-names.  But how would the seasons be named internationally, when they’re opposite north and south of the equator?

.

Solar declination is the obvious naming.

.

The seasons could be named according to the solar declination. 

.

I suggest that months could be named according to their order in a season. For instance, in some of the calendars whose “Today’s Dates” I posted yesterday, today’s date is in the month of Northward2 (Autumn2, north of the equator).

.

How well that would go over depends on when you’re proposing it for. If you’re saying that right now, people wouldn’t want to get rid of the Roman month-names, you’re probably right. That’s why I’d propose 30,30,31 with Roman month-names, and it’s why other 12-month calendars usually keep those month-names.

.

Whether or not people will want a seasonally month-named calendar anytime soon, how would I know? 

.

All that’s known is that evidently no one wants or cares about calendar-reform at all. What will “be well received”?  No calendar-reform is getting a good reception.  Practically no one cares about calendar-reform at all.

.

[quote]
P.S.  Better check the length of your messages, otherwise the next one
will be over 60 Kb.

[/quote]

.

Peter keeps harping on that.  I’ll remind Peter that including a long history of past messages in a conversation is a practice of mailers, not individuals. Presumably the mailers have that attribute because it’s assumed that people want a long history of past messages in a conversation. Maybe it’s felt that, if the past-message-history is “hidden”, then it won’t be a problem—except to Peter.

.

Peter forgets that, when I send, to the list, a message that has such a long history of past messages, that’s only because the person I’m replying to has also sent such a message to the list.

.

Peter also forgets that I’ve recently mostly been only copying the lines that I reply to.

.

Michael Ossipofff

 

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Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

k.palmen@btinternet.com
In reply to this post by Michael Ossipoff
Dear Michael 

In this case I will not attempt to understand this. It seems too complicated to be considered as a calendar reform.

Karl
----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 23/11/2018 - 14:20 (GMT)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.


It looks like Michael is suggesting some kind of leap fortnight calendar.

It does?

Where does Karl get that?

For 28&14, I suggested the Minimum-Displacement leapyear rule, or else a year-start rule that starts the year on the Monday midnight closest to the Winter-Solstice.

(The latter is the one whose "Today's Date" I stated at the end of that post.)

I spoke of a 14-day year-division called "Pre-Spring" or "Pre-Autumn", but at no time did I designate it, or speak of it, as a leap-interval.

Michael Ossipoff 





On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 5:04 AM K PALMEN <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Michael and Calendar People

It looks like Michael is suggesting some kind of leap fortnight calendar. The years with a leap fortnight would occur once every 11 or 12 years with 11 much more common.

A 56-year cycle with 5 leap fortnights would have 4 11s and 1 12 and have a mean year of 365.25 days.
A 45-year cycle with 4 leap fortnights would have 3 11s and 1 12 and have a mean year of 365.244444... days.
A 34-year cycle with 3 leap fortnights would have 2 11s and 1 12 and have a mean year of 365.235294... days.

So an accurate calendar would have a mixture of 45-year or 34-year cycles and a minimum displacement calendar would automatically generate these.

Karl

Friday Delta November 2018


----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 22/11/2018 - 18:18 (GMT)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

It has just occurred to me that signatures are often hidden when a mailer displays an e-mail.  For that reason, below my signature isn't a good place to write today's date in those four alternative calendars.


For that reason, I'm posting today's date in those four calendars in this separate post.


(Today's Roman-Gregorian date is 11/22/18.)


Autumn2 24th 2018  (28&14 wsnm)

.

…or Southward2 24th 2018

.

2018-W47-4 (ISO WeekDate)

.

November 23, 2018 (30,30,31 G1nm)

.

…or Autum2 23

.

.…or Southward2 23

.

Frimaire 1 CCXXVII (FR ae)

.

(To most accurately show FR’s seasonal statement, and because no one’s work or school schedule is being affected, I stated that date by FR ae instead of by FR aen1 or the arithmetical leapyear-rule that was proposed, but not used, for FR.)


Michael Ossipoff



On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 12:45 PM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

1. Usually when I mention 28X13,  people’s main objection is to the 13 months. 

.

2. I’ve long been saying that it seems to me that, in addition to the familiar four seasons, there are Pre-Spring and Pre-Autumn.   …which aren’t quite Spring and Autumn, but are different from Winter and Summer, and clearly on the way to Spring and Autumn.

.

28X13 has that extra month that gives it an odd number of months, and the unpopular number of 13 months. Then why not use that extra 28 days for Pre-Spring and Pre-Autumn.

.

That modification of 28X13 I’ll call “28&14”.

.

With the 2-to-1 length-ratio of its year-divisions, how is 28&14 better than 28,35,28?   It makes sense seasonally, as mentioned above. Yes, the 2-to-1 length-ratio would complicate pay periods, but I only suggest 28&14 for a Utopian Epoch—something not likely to ever be—a time when the changes are so big that convenience of pay-period-uniformity might not be so high among priorities, but when radically ideal changes, such as a good seasonal-calendar, become desirable.

.

With 28&14, with 3-month Winter, Spring, Summer and Autumn; and 14-day Pre-Spring and Pre-Autumn; and with the year beginning when Winter starts at the Winter-Solstice,  then Pre-Spring coincides closely with the last half of Roman March.   …in good agreement with that I’d call Pre-Spring.

.

With 28&14, starting on the Winter-Solstice, the time-lag between winter-solstice and mid-winter, and the time-lag between summer-solstice and mid-summer, is only 42 days. 

.

That’s only 4 days more than the 38-day seasonal time-lag that I determined for a mid-lat West-Coast location.

.

In comparison, with four equal 91-day seasons, starting on the Winter-Solstice, that difference would be 7.5 days instead of 4 days.   …more by a factor of 7.5/4 = 1.875

.

The 3-month seasons’ starting dates, when expressed in terms of our familiar Roman months’ dates, coincide well what we all regard as the meanings for the seasons’ names.

.

Because I’d only suggest 28&14 for a Utopian Epoch, I’d suggest that it have all the seasonal features of the French Republican Calendar (…which I’ll abbreviate “FR”), which I really like for a Utopian Epoch.

.

Of course a disadvantage of FR is that its 10-day week makes observance of the Sabbath very difficult, and so its abrupt elimination of the 7-day week wouldn’t be fair to members of religions that value the Sabbath.  Even worse is the fact that the designers of FR were explicit about that being an intent of theirs. 28&14, which would keep the 7-day week, wouldn’t have that disadvantage.

.

For a Utopian-Epoch, when it might be desired to not unnecessarily keep features of the bad-old-days,  I don’t suppose that people would want a year-start rule that depends on the old Gregorian leapyear rule, and so I’d suggest Minimum-Displacement as 28&14’s leapyear-rule.

.

What today’s date would be, with 28&14, would depend on the choice of epoch, and the choice of the parameters for Minimum-Displacement. 

.

To avoid those variables for now, I’d rather, for speaking of 28&14 for the time-being, give 28&14 a kind of Nearest-Monday year-start rule that starts the year on the Monday that’s closest to the (midnight-to-midnight) day on the Greenwich Meridian on which the Winter-Solstice occurs.  I’ll call that “28&14 wsnm”, where wsnm stands for “Winter-Solstice-Nearest-Monday”

.

In fact, for that matter, 28&14 wsnm might be a good proposal possibility, competitive with 28&14’s Minimum-Displacement version.

.

For FR:

.

I’d refer to two versions of FR:  FR ae, with FR’s originally-defined start (with a “1” day-of-the-week) on the midnight-to-midnight day in Paris on which the Autumnal-Equinox occurs; and FR aen1, that keeps an unchanging sequence of the days-of-the week, and starts the year on the “1” that’s closest to the  midnight-to-midnight day in Paris on which the Autumnal-Equinox occurs.

.

I should call 30,30,31 with Nearest-Monday “30,20,21 G1nm”, instead of “30,30,30 lwnm”, because 1) “Nearest-Monday implies leapweek, so “lw” isn’t needed: and 2) for consistency with the naming that I use in this post. “G1” stands for the first day of the year given by the Gregorian leapyear-rule.

.

I should also distinguish between two versions of the Nearest-Monday (or “Nearest [whatever the 1st day of the week is called]”):

.

For the usual Nearest-Monday with respect to the Gregorian leapyear-system, of course I’d use it exactly as I’ve defined it, and as it’s used in ISOWeekDate.

.

Because FR, as it was used, starts its year with the day that contains the Autumnal-Equinox (even if that equinox occurs just before midnight), then, in the spirit of that rule, I use Nearest-1st-Week-Day as follows, with FR:

.

The year starts at midnight of the “One” that is closest to the day that contains the vernal equinox. (…where “One” is the name of the first day of the week.)  

.

For any _other_ use of Nearest Monday based on a solstice or equinox, I’d start the year on the Monday-starting midnight that’s closest to that equinox or solstice.  (For different weeks, substitute “first day of the week” for “Monday”).  That system is more accurate, for a Nearest-Monday system based on a solstice or equinox.

.

By the way, regarding the seasonal re-naming of months:  With a system of 12 nearly-equal months, I’d use the following month-names:

.

Winter, Pre-Spring, Spring, Summer, Pre-Autumn, Autumn

.

…or, for International use:

.

South, Pre-Northward, Northward, North, Pre-Southward, Southward.

.

That’s how I’d seasonally-rename the months in 30,30,31, or in an otherwise-unchanged Roman-Gregorian Calendar.

.

My posts don’t usually havae a signature-date, because no one of the various calendars is favorite to me, or my one proposal.

.

The widespread government, business and school use of ISO WeekDate (and calendars similar to it), and the widespread use of weekly desk-calendars, suggests that ISO WeekDate could have a chance.   The reform-calendar that I’ve gotten the best acceptance of is 30,30,31 G1nm.     …and Hanke & Henry’s proposal of it has gotten a little favorable media attention (but nevertheless practically no one has heard of it).

.

For a Utopian Epoch, I guess my first suggestion would be 28&14 wsnm with seasonal month-naming--or 28&14 with Minimum-Displacement…but, who knows, maybe people would prefer that it be based on the Summer-Solstice instead of the Winter Solstice. That was the ancient Egyptians’ year-start.

.

My first suggestion would be 28&14 instead of 30X12, because a 10-day week would make things difficult for people to whom the Sabbath is important. Of course who knows what people would prefer at that hypothetical Utopian Epoch.

.

Michael Ossipoff

.

Autumn2 24th 2018  (28&14 wsnm)

.

…or Southward2 24th 2018

.

2018-W47-4 (ISO WeekDate)

.

November 23, 2018 (30,30,31 G1nm)

.

…or Autum2 23

.

.…or Southward2 23

.

Frimaire 1 CCXXVII (FR ae)

.

(To most accurately show FR’s seasonal statement, and because no one’s work or school schedule is being affected, I stated that date by FR ae instead of by FR aen1 or the arithmetical leapyear-rule that was proposed, but not used, for FR.)



 

 





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Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

k.palmen@btinternet.com
In reply to this post by Michael Ossipoff
Dear Michael and Calendar People

If Michael made such an error, perhaps potential users of the calendar might make the same error and so this is a drawback of the calendar. I don't need to understand the calendar to make this particular point.

Karl
----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 23/11/2018 - 16:16 (GMT)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.


I've often been calling the current season "Northward", when I meant "Southward".

That error was due to the fact that, though the solar-declination is changing in the southward direction, it's getting colder, and coldness is a northern experience in this hemisphere.

Michael Ossipoff

On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 10:08 AM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

[quote]

Michael said:
.

> A season's number of months is in parentheses after the name of the season:
> Seasonal month names for 12 at least roughly equal months:
> Winter (3), Pre-Spring (1), Spring (2), Summer (3), Pre-Autumn (1), Autumn
> (2),

.

Are you aware that the usual four European/U.S. seasons, Winter,
Spring, Summer and Autumn, only occur in temperate climate zones?

[/quote]

.

1. Is Peter aware that most people live in temperate-zones?

.

2. And people anywhere know what those season-terms mean in their region. (On the equator, people know that what is elsewhere called “Winter” and “Summer” mean that the Sun is less overhead, and that there’s less convection-caused rain.)

.

3. I was speaking of 6 seasons, not 4.

.

[quote]

> or, for International use:
> South (3), Pre-Northward (1), Northward (2), North (3), Pre-Southward (1),
> Southward (2)

.

I'm sure that will be well received internationally.

[/quote]

.

Premature sureness is an indication of …..some undesirable attribute.

.

You have no idea how calendar-proposals  would be received internationally.

.

There aren’t a whole lot of possibilities for an international seasonal calendar.

.

One good suggestion would be to keep months of approximately 30 days, as with 30,30,31 for example, and keep the Roman names for them.   …because anyone anywhere knows what kind weather typically can be expected when a particular Roman month arrives.

.

But if it were desired to make a complete break with the past, and not keep the Roman month names (or even 12 roughly equal months), then some sort of season-descriptive month-names would be called-for,  for a seasonal calendar with months.

.

If the Roman month-names (and maybe even 12 equal months) are abandoned, then what remains is the season-names.  But how would the seasons be named internationally, when they’re opposite north and south of the equator?

.

Solar declination is the obvious naming.

.

The seasons could be named according to the solar declination. 

.

I suggest that months could be named according to their order in a season. For instance, in some of the calendars whose “Today’s Dates” I posted yesterday, today’s date is in the month of Northward2 (Autumn2, north of the equator).

.

How well that would go over depends on when you’re proposing it for. If you’re saying that right now, people wouldn’t want to get rid of the Roman month-names, you’re probably right. That’s why I’d propose 30,30,31 with Roman month-names, and it’s why other 12-month calendars usually keep those month-names.

.

Whether or not people will want a seasonally month-named calendar anytime soon, how would I know? 

.

All that’s known is that evidently no one wants or cares about calendar-reform at all. What will “be well received”?  No calendar-reform is getting a good reception.  Practically no one cares about calendar-reform at all.

.

[quote]
P.S.  Better check the length of your messages, otherwise the next one
will be over 60 Kb.

[/quote]

.

Peter keeps harping on that.  I’ll remind Peter that including a long history of past messages in a conversation is a practice of mailers, not individuals. Presumably the mailers have that attribute because it’s assumed that people want a long history of past messages in a conversation. Maybe it’s felt that, if the past-message-history is “hidden”, then it won’t be a problem—except to Peter.

.

Peter forgets that, when I send, to the list, a message that has such a long history of past messages, that’s only because the person I’m replying to has also sent such a message to the list.

.

Peter also forgets that I’ve recently mostly been only copying the lines that I reply to.

.

Michael Ossipofff

 



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Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

Walter J Ziobro
In reply to this post by Michael Ossipoff

Dear Karl, Michael et al

Perhaps Michael would be interested in my 13 month leap month calendar Every month has exactly 4 weeks of 28 days A leap month of exactly 28 days is added after every 293 months A calendar that is perfectly regular, symmetrical, and continuous in every way And to distinguish the calendar, I named the months with Esperanto numeral names A description is posted on the Calendar Wikia

Walter Ziobro

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail




On Saturday, November 24, 2018 K PALMEN <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Michael and Calendar People

If Michael made such an error, perhaps potential users of the calendar might make the same error and so this is a drawback of the calendar. I don't need to understand the calendar to make this particular point.

Karl

----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 23/11/2018 - 16:16 (GMT)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.


I've often been calling the current season "Northward", when I meant "Southward".

That error was due to the fact that, though the solar-declination is changing in the southward direction, it's getting colder, and coldness is a northern experience in this hemisphere.

Michael Ossipoff

On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 10:08 AM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

[quote]

Michael said:
.

> A season's number of months is in parentheses after the name of the season:
> Seasonal month names for 12 at least roughly equal months:
> Winter (3), Pre-Spring (1), Spring (2), Summer (3), Pre-Autumn (1), Autumn
> (2),

.

Are you aware that the usual four European/U.S. seasons, Winter,
Spring, Summer and Autumn, only occur in temperate climate zones?

[/quote]

.

1. Is Peter aware that most people live in temperate-zones?

.

2. And people anywhere know what those season-terms mean in their region. (On the equator, people know that what is elsewhere called “Winter” and “Summer” mean that the Sun is less overhead, and that there’s less convection-caused rain.)

.

3. I was speaking of 6 seasons, not 4.

.

[quote]

> or, for International use:
> South (3), Pre-Northward (1), Northward (2), North (3), Pre-Southward (1),
> Southward (2)

.

I'm sure that will be well received internationally.

[/quote]

.

Premature sureness is an indication of …..some undesirable attribute.

.

You have no idea how calendar-proposals  would be received internationally.

.

There aren’t a whole lot of possibilities for an international seasonal calendar.

.

One good suggestion would be to keep months of approximately 30 days, as with 30,30,31 for example, and keep the Roman names for them.   …because anyone anywhere knows what kind weather typically can be expected when a particular Roman month arrives.

.

But if it were desired to make a complete break with the past, and not keep the Roman month names (or even 12 roughly equal months), then some sort of season-descriptive month-names would be called-for,  for a seasonal calendar with months.

.

If the Roman month-names (and maybe even 12 equal months) are abandoned, then what remains is the season-names.  But how would the seasons be named internationally, when they’re opposite north and south of the equator?

.

Solar declination is the obvious naming.

.

The seasons could be named according to the solar declination. 

.

I suggest that months could be named according to their order in a season. For instance, in some of the calendars whose “Today’s Dates” I posted yesterday, today’s date is in the month of Northward2 (Autumn2, north of the equator).

.

How well that would go over depends on when you’re proposing it for. If you’re saying that right now, people wouldn’t want to get rid of the Roman month-names, you’re probably right. That’s why I’d propose 30,30,31 with Roman month-names, and it’s why other 12-month calendars usually keep those month-names.

.

Whether or not people will want a seasonally month-named calendar anytime soon, how would I know? 

.

All that’s known is that evidently no one wants or cares about calendar-reform at all. What will “be well received”?  No calendar-reform is getting a good reception.  Practically no one cares about calendar-reform at all.

.

[quote]
P.S.  Better check the length of your messages, otherwise the next one
will be over 60 Kb.

[/quote]

.

Peter keeps harping on that.  I’ll remind Peter that including a long history of past messages in a conversation is a practice of mailers, not individuals. Presumably the mailers have that attribute because it’s assumed that people want a long history of past messages in a conversation. Maybe it’s felt that, if the past-message-history is “hidden”, then it won’t be a problem—except to Peter.

.

Peter forgets that, when I send, to the list, a message that has such a long history of past messages, that’s only because the person I’m replying to has also sent such a message to the list.

.

Peter also forgets that I’ve recently mostly been only copying the lines that I reply to.

.

Michael Ossipofff

 



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Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

Michael Ossipoff

Walter--

A leap-month calendar has too much periodic cyclical displacement amplitude.  ("jitter").

But I've met people who liked the 28X13 month-system. It and 30,30,31 are the only alternative year-division systems that I've gotten an immediate accepting reaction for. I've even had someone write to me to propose it, when I hadn't mentioned calendar-reform to her.

I realize that 30X12 is out of the question for anytime soon, because of its 10-day week, but, from my conversations, 28X13 so far looks like one of the more liked proposals.

Of course I haven't talked to many people about which alternative calendars they'd accept, and of course that's something that we should be doing if we're interested in alternative calendars.

Michael Ossipoff

On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 10:13 PM Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Karl, Michael et al

Perhaps Michael would be interested in my 13 month leap month calendar Every month has exactly 4 weeks of 28 days A leap month of exactly 28 days is added after every 293 months A calendar that is perfectly regular, symmetrical, and continuous in every way And to distinguish the calendar, I named the months with Esperanto numeral names A description is posted on the Calendar Wikia

Walter Ziobro

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


On Saturday, November 24, 2018 K PALMEN <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Michael and Calendar People

If Michael made such an error, perhaps potential users of the calendar might make the same error and so this is a drawback of the calendar. I don't need to understand the calendar to make this particular point.

Karl

----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 23/11/2018 - 16:16 (GMT)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.


I've often been calling the current season "Northward", when I meant "Southward".

That error was due to the fact that, though the solar-declination is changing in the southward direction, it's getting colder, and coldness is a northern experience in this hemisphere.

Michael Ossipoff

On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 10:08 AM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

[quote]

Michael said:
.

> A season's number of months is in parentheses after the name of the season:
> Seasonal month names for 12 at least roughly equal months:
> Winter (3), Pre-Spring (1), Spring (2), Summer (3), Pre-Autumn (1), Autumn
> (2),

.

Are you aware that the usual four European/U.S. seasons, Winter,
Spring, Summer and Autumn, only occur in temperate climate zones?

[/quote]

.

1. Is Peter aware that most people live in temperate-zones?

.

2. And people anywhere know what those season-terms mean in their region. (On the equator, people know that what is elsewhere called “Winter” and “Summer” mean that the Sun is less overhead, and that there’s less convection-caused rain.)

.

3. I was speaking of 6 seasons, not 4.

.

[quote]

> or, for International use:
> South (3), Pre-Northward (1), Northward (2), North (3), Pre-Southward (1),
> Southward (2)

.

I'm sure that will be well received internationally.

[/quote]

.

Premature sureness is an indication of …..some undesirable attribute.

.

You have no idea how calendar-proposals  would be received internationally.

.

There aren’t a whole lot of possibilities for an international seasonal calendar.

.

One good suggestion would be to keep months of approximately 30 days, as with 30,30,31 for example, and keep the Roman names for them.   …because anyone anywhere knows what kind weather typically can be expected when a particular Roman month arrives.

.

But if it were desired to make a complete break with the past, and not keep the Roman month names (or even 12 roughly equal months), then some sort of season-descriptive month-names would be called-for,  for a seasonal calendar with months.

.

If the Roman month-names (and maybe even 12 equal months) are abandoned, then what remains is the season-names.  But how would the seasons be named internationally, when they’re opposite north and south of the equator?

.

Solar declination is the obvious naming.

.

The seasons could be named according to the solar declination. 

.

I suggest that months could be named according to their order in a season. For instance, in some of the calendars whose “Today’s Dates” I posted yesterday, today’s date is in the month of Northward2 (Autumn2, north of the equator).

.

How well that would go over depends on when you’re proposing it for. If you’re saying that right now, people wouldn’t want to get rid of the Roman month-names, you’re probably right. That’s why I’d propose 30,30,31 with Roman month-names, and it’s why other 12-month calendars usually keep those month-names.

.

Whether or not people will want a seasonally month-named calendar anytime soon, how would I know? 

.

All that’s known is that evidently no one wants or cares about calendar-reform at all. What will “be well received”?  No calendar-reform is getting a good reception.  Practically no one cares about calendar-reform at all.

.

[quote]
P.S.  Better check the length of your messages, otherwise the next one
will be over 60 Kb.

[/quote]

.

Peter keeps harping on that.  I’ll remind Peter that including a long history of past messages in a conversation is a practice of mailers, not individuals. Presumably the mailers have that attribute because it’s assumed that people want a long history of past messages in a conversation. Maybe it’s felt that, if the past-message-history is “hidden”, then it won’t be a problem—except to Peter.

.

Peter forgets that, when I send, to the list, a message that has such a long history of past messages, that’s only because the person I’m replying to has also sent such a message to the list.

.

Peter also forgets that I’ve recently mostly been only copying the lines that I reply to.

.

Michael Ossipofff

 



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Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

Michael Ossipoff
In reply to this post by Walter J Ziobro

You mentioned the matter of what I’d like, and that gives me an excuse to say what I’d like:  A seasonal calendar.  …in fact, a rural-nature seasonal-calendar just like the French-Republican Calendar (FR).

.

Of course people here might already know all about it, this being a calendar forum. …especially since an advocate of FR was posting here not long ago.  But I’d like to say something its details that are the reason why I like it. First, I emphasize that this system, or one like it, could be used with any month-system or other year-division system.

.

As you know, its months are named for weather conditions and crops.  Each of the four season’s has its own month-name-endings:

.

Quoting from Wikipedia:

.

Autumn:

.

    • Vendémiaire (from French vendange, derived from Latin vindemia, "grape harvest"), starting 22, 23, or 24 September
    • Brumaire (from French brume, "mist"), starting 22, 23, or 24 October
    • Frimaire (From French frimas, "frost"), starting 21, 22, or 23 November
  • Winter:
    • Nivôse (from Latin nivosus, "snowy"), starting 21, 22, or 23 December
    • Pluviôse (from French pluvieux, derived from Latin pluvius, "rainy"), starting 20, 21, or 22 January
    • Ventôse (from French venteux, derived from Latin ventosus, "windy"), starting 19, 20, or 21 February
  • Spring:
    • Germinal (from French germination), starting 20 or 21 March
    • Floréal (from French fleur, derived from Latin flos, "flower"), starting 20 or 21 April
    • Prairial (from French prairie, "meadow"), starting 20 or 21 May
  • Summer:
    • Messidor (from Latin messis, "harvest"), starting 19 or 20 June
    • Thermidor (or Fervidor*) (from Greek thermon, "summer heat"), starting 19 or 20 July
    • Fructidor (from Latin fructus, "fruit"), starting 18 or 19 August

.

In addition to its month and day-of-the-month, each day is named for an element of rural life appropriate for that day’s particular time of year. Most days are named for plants, with these exceptions:

.

Each day whose date ends in “5” is named for an animal. Each day whose date ends in “0” (in other words, the last day of a month) is named for an agricultural implement.  And, in Nivose, the first winter month, each day that doesn’t end in “5” or “0” is named after a mineral instead of a plant. (Maybe plants aren’t much in evidence under snow.)

.

It wouldn’t have to be 30X12. As I said, any calendar could have those built-in rural-nature features.

.

Of course it would be best if the month-system in use is one whose divisions agree well with what we regard or perceive as the seasons. Here are a couple of possibilities:

.

30,30,31 could be used, with the year starting at the same approximate ecliptic longitude that our current civil calendar starts (Of course that starting ecliptic-longitude varies within a (hopefully small) range).

.

An easily and simply-defined way to do that is the Nearest-Monday year-start rule that I’ve described:

.

Each year starts on the Monday that is closest to our current civil-calendar’s January 1st for that year.

.

Month-Naming:   

.

If the 12 months keep the Roman names, then of course everyone everwhere knows that those month names mean, with regard to seasons.

.

Alternatively, the 12 months could be divided, as I’ve described, into to 6 seasons, with our usual season-names.    …or, for international uniform use, named for solar declination, in the manner that I’ve described.  …with months named for their order in a season.

.

Another suggestion of mine is the year-division system that I call 28&14. 

.

It would start at the Winter-Solstice, and would be divided into the 6 seasons that I specified in its definition.

.

One of two year-start rules would be used:

.

1. Start each year at the Monday-starting midnight that’s closest to the Winter-Solstice.

.

Or

.

2. Every 365.2422 days, reckoned from a Winter-Solstice, start a year at the Monday-starting midnight that is closest to the end of that interval.

.

#1 uses the actual equinox;  and #2 is an arithmetical rule.

---------------------------------

By the way, if 30,30,31 is used, and people don’t want to peg the year-start to the Gregorian leapyear-rule’s results, then the #2 rule described immediately above could be used, except that the sequence of 365.2422 day intervals would be reckoned from some initial day when the Sun passed some ecliptic-longitude that is typical for the start of a Roman-Gregorian year.  Of course there’s a range of solar ecliptic-longitudes that could be chosen, because our Roman-Gregorian year starts at various solar ecliptic longitudes within a small range.   That choice of a solar ecliptic-longitude for that purpose could be made on the basis of what past year(s) you want the calendar’s seasons to resemble.

---------------------

I suggest that, now more than ever, there’s a need for people to live in their natural environment, care about it, acquire better priorities, so that they’ll know what they’re irreparably wrecking, and might be less likely to disregard and wreck it.  I mean, they might be more likely to care about what they experience and live in.

.

Michael Ossipoff

 

                                                                                                                                       

 


On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 10:13 PM Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Karl, Michael et al

Perhaps Michael would be interested in my 13 month leap month calendar Every month has exactly 4 weeks of 28 days A leap month of exactly 28 days is added after every 293 months A calendar that is perfectly regular, symmetrical, and continuous in every way And to distinguish the calendar, I named the months with Esperanto numeral names A description is posted on the Calendar Wikia

Walter Ziobro

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


On Saturday, November 24, 2018 K PALMEN <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Michael and Calendar People

If Michael made such an error, perhaps potential users of the calendar might make the same error and so this is a drawback of the calendar. I don't need to understand the calendar to make this particular point.

Karl

----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 23/11/2018 - 16:16 (GMT)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.


I've often been calling the current season "Northward", when I meant "Southward".

That error was due to the fact that, though the solar-declination is changing in the southward direction, it's getting colder, and coldness is a northern experience in this hemisphere.

Michael Ossipoff

On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 10:08 AM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

[quote]

Michael said:
.

> A season's number of months is in parentheses after the name of the season:
> Seasonal month names for 12 at least roughly equal months:
> Winter (3), Pre-Spring (1), Spring (2), Summer (3), Pre-Autumn (1), Autumn
> (2),

.

Are you aware that the usual four European/U.S. seasons, Winter,
Spring, Summer and Autumn, only occur in temperate climate zones?

[/quote]

.

1. Is Peter aware that most people live in temperate-zones?

.

2. And people anywhere know what those season-terms mean in their region. (On the equator, people know that what is elsewhere called “Winter” and “Summer” mean that the Sun is less overhead, and that there’s less convection-caused rain.)

.

3. I was speaking of 6 seasons, not 4.

.

[quote]

> or, for International use:
> South (3), Pre-Northward (1), Northward (2), North (3), Pre-Southward (1),
> Southward (2)

.

I'm sure that will be well received internationally.

[/quote]

.

Premature sureness is an indication of …..some undesirable attribute.

.

You have no idea how calendar-proposals  would be received internationally.

.

There aren’t a whole lot of possibilities for an international seasonal calendar.

.

One good suggestion would be to keep months of approximately 30 days, as with 30,30,31 for example, and keep the Roman names for them.   …because anyone anywhere knows what kind weather typically can be expected when a particular Roman month arrives.

.

But if it were desired to make a complete break with the past, and not keep the Roman month names (or even 12 roughly equal months), then some sort of season-descriptive month-names would be called-for,  for a seasonal calendar with months.

.

If the Roman month-names (and maybe even 12 equal months) are abandoned, then what remains is the season-names.  But how would the seasons be named internationally, when they’re opposite north and south of the equator?

.

Solar declination is the obvious naming.

.

The seasons could be named according to the solar declination. 

.

I suggest that months could be named according to their order in a season. For instance, in some of the calendars whose “Today’s Dates” I posted yesterday, today’s date is in the month of Northward2 (Autumn2, north of the equator).

.

How well that would go over depends on when you’re proposing it for. If you’re saying that right now, people wouldn’t want to get rid of the Roman month-names, you’re probably right. That’s why I’d propose 30,30,31 with Roman month-names, and it’s why other 12-month calendars usually keep those month-names.

.

Whether or not people will want a seasonally month-named calendar anytime soon, how would I know? 

.

All that’s known is that evidently no one wants or cares about calendar-reform at all. What will “be well received”?  No calendar-reform is getting a good reception.  Practically no one cares about calendar-reform at all.

.

[quote]
P.S.  Better check the length of your messages, otherwise the next one
will be over 60 Kb.

[/quote]

.

Peter keeps harping on that.  I’ll remind Peter that including a long history of past messages in a conversation is a practice of mailers, not individuals. Presumably the mailers have that attribute because it’s assumed that people want a long history of past messages in a conversation. Maybe it’s felt that, if the past-message-history is “hidden”, then it won’t be a problem—except to Peter.

.

Peter forgets that, when I send, to the list, a message that has such a long history of past messages, that’s only because the person I’m replying to has also sent such a message to the list.

.

Peter also forgets that I’ve recently mostly been only copying the lines that I reply to.

.

Michael Ossipofff

 



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Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

k.palmen@btinternet.com
Dear Michael and Calendar People

This topic has got me to think about the main reason I like months of 4 or 5 weeks for a leap week calendar. The leap week can be accommodated in such a month system. This would not work for months of 30 & 31 days, nor for months of 28 days unless the leap weeks were assembled into leap months.

Also Michael's suggested month names would work with such a calendar.

Karl

Sunday Delta November 2018
----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 25/11/2018 - 09:26 (GMT)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.


You mentioned the matter of what I’d like, and that gives me an excuse to say what I’d like:  A seasonal calendar.  …in fact, a rural-nature seasonal-calendar just like the French-Republican Calendar (FR).

.

Of course people here might already know all about it, this being a calendar forum. …especially since an advocate of FR was posting here not long ago.  But I’d like to say something its details that are the reason why I like it. First, I emphasize that this system, or one like it, could be used with any month-system or other year-division system.

.

As you know, its months are named for weather conditions and crops.  Each of the four season’s has its own month-name-endings:

.

Quoting from Wikipedia:

.

Autumn:

.

    • Vendémiaire (from French vendange, derived from Latin vindemia, "grape harvest"), starting 22, 23, or 24 September
    • Brumaire (from French brume, "mist"), starting 22, 23, or 24 October
    • Frimaire (From French frimas, "frost"), starting 21, 22, or 23 November
  • Winter:
    • Nivôse (from Latin nivosus, "snowy"), starting 21, 22, or 23 December
    • Pluviôse (from French pluvieux, derived from Latin pluvius, "rainy"), starting 20, 21, or 22 January
    • Ventôse (from French venteux, derived from Latin ventosus, "windy"), starting 19, 20, or 21 February
  • Spring:
    • Germinal (from French germination), starting 20 or 21 March
    • Floréal (from French fleur, derived from Latin flos, "flower"), starting 20 or 21 April
    • Prairial (from French prairie, "meadow"), starting 20 or 21 May
  • Summer:
    • Messidor (from Latin messis, "harvest"), starting 19 or 20 June
    • Thermidor (or Fervidor*) (from Greek thermon, "summer heat"), starting 19 or 20 July
    • Fructidor (from Latin fructus, "fruit"), starting 18 or 19 August

.

In addition to its month and day-of-the-month, each day is named for an element of rural life appropriate for that day’s particular time of year. Most days are named for plants, with these exceptions:

.

Each day whose date ends in “5” is named for an animal. Each day whose date ends in “0” (in other words, the last day of a month) is named for an agricultural implement.  And, in Nivose, the first winter month, each day that doesn’t end in “5” or “0” is named after a mineral instead of a plant. (Maybe plants aren’t much in evidence under snow.)

.

It wouldn’t have to be 30X12. As I said, any calendar could have those built-in rural-nature features.

.

Of course it would be best if the month-system in use is one whose divisions agree well with what we regard or perceive as the seasons. Here are a couple of possibilities:

.

30,30,31 could be used, with the year starting at the same approximate ecliptic longitude that our current civil calendar starts (Of course that starting ecliptic-longitude varies within a (hopefully small) range).

.

An easily and simply-defined way to do that is the Nearest-Monday year-start rule that I’ve described:

.

Each year starts on the Monday that is closest to our current civil-calendar’s January 1st for that year.

.

Month-Naming:   

.

If the 12 months keep the Roman names, then of course everyone everwhere knows that those month names mean, with regard to seasons.

.

Alternatively, the 12 months could be divided, as I’ve described, into to 6 seasons, with our usual season-names.    …or, for international uniform use, named for solar declination, in the manner that I’ve described.  …with months named for their order in a season.

.

Another suggestion of mine is the year-division system that I call 28&14. 

.

It would start at the Winter-Solstice, and would be divided into the 6 seasons that I specified in its definition.

.

One of two year-start rules would be used:

.

1. Start each year at the Monday-starting midnight that’s closest to the Winter-Solstice.

.

Or

.

2. Every 365.2422 days, reckoned from a Winter-Solstice, start a year at the Monday-starting midnight that is closest to the end of that interval.

.

#1 uses the actual equinox;  and #2 is an arithmetical rule.

---------------------------------

By the way, if 30,30,31 is used, and people don’t want to peg the year-start to the Gregorian leapyear-rule’s results, then the #2 rule described immediately above could be used, except that the sequence of 365.2422 day intervals would be reckoned from some initial day when the Sun passed some ecliptic-longitude that is typical for the start of a Roman-Gregorian year.  Of course there’s a range of solar ecliptic-longitudes that could be chosen, because our Roman-Gregorian year starts at various solar ecliptic longitudes within a small range.   That choice of a solar ecliptic-longitude for that purpose could be made on the basis of what past year(s) you want the calendar’s seasons to resemble.

---------------------

I suggest that, now more than ever, there’s a need for people to live in their natural environment, care about it, acquire better priorities, so that they’ll know what they’re irreparably wrecking, and might be less likely to disregard and wreck it.  I mean, they might be more likely to care about what they experience and live in.

.

Michael Ossipoff

 

                                                                                                                                       

 


On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 10:13 PM Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Karl, Michael et al

Perhaps Michael would be interested in my 13 month leap month calendar Every month has exactly 4 weeks of 28 days A leap month of exactly 28 days is added after every 293 months A calendar that is perfectly regular, symmetrical, and continuous in every way And to distinguish the calendar, I named the months with Esperanto numeral names A description is posted on the Calendar Wikia

Walter Ziobro

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


On Saturday, November 24, 2018 K PALMEN <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Michael and Calendar People

If Michael made such an error, perhaps potential users of the calendar might make the same error and so this is a drawback of the calendar. I don't need to understand the calendar to make this particular point.

Karl

----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 23/11/2018 - 16:16 (GMT)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.


I've often been calling the current season "Northward", when I meant "Southward".

That error was due to the fact that, though the solar-declination is changing in the southward direction, it's getting colder, and coldness is a northern experience in this hemisphere.

Michael Ossipoff

On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 10:08 AM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

[quote]

Michael said:
.

> A season's number of months is in parentheses after the name of the season:
> Seasonal month names for 12 at least roughly equal months:
> Winter (3), Pre-Spring (1), Spring (2), Summer (3), Pre-Autumn (1), Autumn
> (2),

.

Are you aware that the usual four European/U.S. seasons, Winter,
Spring, Summer and Autumn, only occur in temperate climate zones?

[/quote]

.

1. Is Peter aware that most people live in temperate-zones?

.

2. And people anywhere know what those season-terms mean in their region. (On the equator, people know that what is elsewhere called “Winter” and “Summer” mean that the Sun is less overhead, and that there’s less convection-caused rain.)

.

3. I was speaking of 6 seasons, not 4.

.

[quote]

> or, for International use:
> South (3), Pre-Northward (1), Northward (2), North (3), Pre-Southward (1),
> Southward (2)

.

I'm sure that will be well received internationally.

[/quote]

.

Premature sureness is an indication of …..some undesirable attribute.

.

You have no idea how calendar-proposals  would be received internationally.

.

There aren’t a whole lot of possibilities for an international seasonal calendar.

.

One good suggestion would be to keep months of approximately 30 days, as with 30,30,31 for example, and keep the Roman names for them.   …because anyone anywhere knows what kind weather typically can be expected when a particular Roman month arrives.

.

But if it were desired to make a complete break with the past, and not keep the Roman month names (or even 12 roughly equal months), then some sort of season-descriptive month-names would be called-for,  for a seasonal calendar with months.

.

If the Roman month-names (and maybe even 12 equal months) are abandoned, then what remains is the season-names.  But how would the seasons be named internationally, when they’re opposite north and south of the equator?

.

Solar declination is the obvious naming.

.

The seasons could be named according to the solar declination. 

.

I suggest that months could be named according to their order in a season. For instance, in some of the calendars whose “Today’s Dates” I posted yesterday, today’s date is in the month of Northward2 (Autumn2, north of the equator).

.

How well that would go over depends on when you’re proposing it for. If you’re saying that right now, people wouldn’t want to get rid of the Roman month-names, you’re probably right. That’s why I’d propose 30,30,31 with Roman month-names, and it’s why other 12-month calendars usually keep those month-names.

.

Whether or not people will want a seasonally month-named calendar anytime soon, how would I know? 

.

All that’s known is that evidently no one wants or cares about calendar-reform at all. What will “be well received”?  No calendar-reform is getting a good reception.  Practically no one cares about calendar-reform at all.

.

[quote]
P.S.  Better check the length of your messages, otherwise the next one
will be over 60 Kb.

[/quote]

.

Peter keeps harping on that.  I’ll remind Peter that including a long history of past messages in a conversation is a practice of mailers, not individuals. Presumably the mailers have that attribute because it’s assumed that people want a long history of past messages in a conversation. Maybe it’s felt that, if the past-message-history is “hidden”, then it won’t be a problem—except to Peter.

.

Peter forgets that, when I send, to the list, a message that has such a long history of past messages, that’s only because the person I’m replying to has also sent such a message to the list.

.

Peter also forgets that I’ve recently mostly been only copying the lines that I reply to.

.

Michael Ossipofff

 





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Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

k.palmen@btinternet.com
Dear Calendar People

Here's a shortened version of my previous E-mail.

Karl
----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 25/11/2018 - 10:30 (GMT)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

Dear Michael and Calendar People

This topic has got me to think about the main reason I like months of 4 or 5 weeks for a leap week calendar. The leap week can be accommodated in such a month system. This would not work for months of 30 & 31 days, nor for months of 28 days unless the leap weeks were assembled into leap months.

Also Michael's suggested month names would work with such a calendar.

Karl

Sunday Delta November 2018
----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 25/11/2018 - 09:26 (GMT)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.


You mentioned the matter of what I’d like, and that gives me an excuse to say what I’d like:  A seasonal calendar.  …in fact, a rural-nature seasonal-calendar just like the French-Republican Calendar (FR).

.

Of course people here might already know all about it, this being a calendar forum. …especially since an advocate of FR was posting here not long ago.  But I’d like to say something its details that are the reason why I like it. First, I emphasize that this system, or one like it, could be used with any month-system or other year-division system.

.

As you know, its months are named for weather conditions and crops.  Each of the four season’s has its own month-name-endings:

.

Quoting from Wikipedia:

.

Autumn:

.

    • Vendémiaire (from French vendange, derived from Latin vindemia, "grape harvest"), starting 22, 23, or 24 September
    • Brumaire (from French brume, "mist"), starting 22, 23, or 24 October
    • Frimaire (From French frimas, "frost"), starting 21, 22, or 23 November
  • Winter:
    • Nivôse (from Latin nivosus, "snowy"), starting 21, 22, or 23 December
    • Pluviôse (from French pluvieux, derived from Latin pluvius, "rainy"), starting 20, 21, or 22 January
    • Ventôse (from French venteux, derived from Latin ventosus, "windy"), starting 19, 20, or 21 February
  • Spring:
    • Germinal (from French germination), starting 20 or 21 March
    • Floréal (from French fleur, derived from Latin flos, "flower"), starting 20 or 21 April
    • Prairial (from French prairie, "meadow"), starting 20 or 21 May
  • Summer:
    • Messidor (from Latin messis, "harvest"), starting 19 or 20 June
    • Thermidor (or Fervidor*) (from Greek thermon, "summer heat"), starting 19 or 20 July
    • Fructidor (from Latin fructus, "fruit"), starting 18 or 19 August

.

In addition to its month and day-of-the-month, each day is named for an element of rural life appropriate for that day’s particular time of year. Most days are named for plants, with these exceptions:

.

Each day whose date ends in “5” is named for an animal. Each day whose date ends in “0” (in other words, the last day of a month) is named for an agricultural implement.  And, in Nivose, the first winter month, each day that doesn’t end in “5” or “0” is named after a mineral instead of a plant. (Maybe plants aren’t much in evidence under snow.)

.

It wouldn’t have to be 30X12. As I said, any calendar could have those built-in rural-nature features.

.

Of course it would be best if the month-system in use is one whose divisions agree well with what we regard or perceive as the seasons. Here are a couple of possibilities:

.

30,30,31 could be used, with the year starting at the same approximate ecliptic longitude that our current civil calendar starts (Of course that starting ecliptic-longitude varies within a (hopefully small) range).

.

An easily and simply-defined way to do that is the Nearest-Monday year-start rule that I’ve described:

.

Each year starts on the Monday that is closest to our current civil-calendar’s January 1st for that year.

.

Month-Naming:   

.

If the 12 months keep the Roman names, then of course everyone everwhere knows that those month names mean, with regard to seasons.

.

Alternatively, the 12 months could be divided, as I’ve described, into to 6 seasons, with our usual season-names.    …or, for international uniform use, named for solar declination, in the manner that I’ve described.  …with months named for their order in a season.

.

Another suggestion of mine is the year-division system that I call 28&14. 

.

It would start at the Winter-Solstice, and would be divided into the 6 seasons that I specified in its definition.

.

One of two year-start rules would be used:

.

1. Start each year at the Monday-starting midnight that’s closest to the Winter-Solstice.

.

Or

2. Every 365.2422 days, reckoned from a Winter-Solstice, start a year at the Monday-starting midnight that is closest to the end of that interval.

#1 uses the actual equinox;  and #2 is an arithmetical rule.

---------------------------------

By the way, if 30,30,31 is used, and people don’t want to peg the year-start to the Gregorian leapyear-rule’s results, then the #2 rule described immediately above could be used, except that the sequence of 365.2422 day intervals would be reckoned from some initial day when the Sun passed some ecliptic-longitude that is typical for the start of a Roman-Gregorian year.  Of course there’s a range of solar ecliptic-longitudes that could be chosen, because our Roman-Gregorian year starts at various solar ecliptic longitudes within a small range.   That choice of a solar ecliptic-longitude for that purpose could be made on the basis of what past year(s) you want the calendar’s seasons to resemble.

---------------------

I suggest that, now more than ever, there’s a need for people to live in their natural environment, care about it, acquire better priorities, so that they’ll know what they’re irreparably wrecking, and might be less likely to disregard and wreck it.  I mean, they might be more likely to care about what they experience and live in.

.

Michael Ossipoff

 

                                                                                                                                      


 







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Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

Walter J Ziobro
In reply to this post by Michael Ossipoff

Dear Michael et al

There is no reason that both a 28x13 calendar and a 30-30-31x4 calendar cannot be run simultaneously with alternate month names in a leap week calendar They both have 364 days in a common year

WalterZiobro

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail




On Sunday, November 25, 2018 Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:


Walter--

A leap-month calendar has too much periodic cyclical displacement amplitude.  ("jitter").

But I've met people who liked the 28X13 month-system. It and 30,30,31 are the only alternative year-division systems that I've gotten an immediate accepting reaction for. I've even had someone write to me to propose it, when I hadn't mentioned calendar-reform to her.

I realize that 30X12 is out of the question for anytime soon, because of its 10-day week, but, from my conversations, 28X13 so far looks like one of the more liked proposals.

Of course I haven't talked to many people about which alternative calendars they'd accept, and of course that's something that we should be doing if we're interested in alternative calendars.

Michael Ossipoff

On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 10:13 PM Walter J Ziobro <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Karl, Michael et al

Perhaps Michael would be interested in my 13 month leap month calendar Every month has exactly 4 weeks of 28 days A leap month of exactly 28 days is added after every 293 months A calendar that is perfectly regular, symmetrical, and continuous in every way And to distinguish the calendar, I named the months with Esperanto numeral names A description is posted on the Calendar Wikia

Walter Ziobro

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


On Saturday, November 24, 2018 K PALMEN <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Michael and Calendar People

If Michael made such an error, perhaps potential users of the calendar might make the same error and so this is a drawback of the calendar. I don't need to understand the calendar to make this particular point.

Karl

----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 23/11/2018 - 16:16 (GMT)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.


I've often been calling the current season "Northward", when I meant "Southward".

That error was due to the fact that, though the solar-declination is changing in the southward direction, it's getting colder, and coldness is a northern experience in this hemisphere.

Michael Ossipoff

On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 10:08 AM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

[quote]

Michael said:
.

> A season's number of months is in parentheses after the name of the season:
> Seasonal month names for 12 at least roughly equal months:
> Winter (3), Pre-Spring (1), Spring (2), Summer (3), Pre-Autumn (1), Autumn
> (2),

.

Are you aware that the usual four European/U.S. seasons, Winter,
Spring, Summer and Autumn, only occur in temperate climate zones?

[/quote]

.

1. Is Peter aware that most people live in temperate-zones?

.

2. And people anywhere know what those season-terms mean in their region. (On the equator, people know that what is elsewhere called “Winter” and “Summer” mean that the Sun is less overhead, and that there’s less convection-caused rain.)

.

3. I was speaking of 6 seasons, not 4.

.

[quote]

> or, for International use:
> South (3), Pre-Northward (1), Northward (2), North (3), Pre-Southward (1),
> Southward (2)

.

I'm sure that will be well received internationally.

[/quote]

.

Premature sureness is an indication of …..some undesirable attribute.

.

You have no idea how calendar-proposals  would be received internationally.

.

There aren’t a whole lot of possibilities for an international seasonal calendar.

.

One good suggestion would be to keep months of approximately 30 days, as with 30,30,31 for example, and keep the Roman names for them.   …because anyone anywhere knows what kind weather typically can be expected when a particular Roman month arrives.

.

But if it were desired to make a complete break with the past, and not keep the Roman month names (or even 12 roughly equal months), then some sort of season-descriptive month-names would be called-for,  for a seasonal calendar with months.

.

If the Roman month-names (and maybe even 12 equal months) are abandoned, then what remains is the season-names.  But how would the seasons be named internationally, when they’re opposite north and south of the equator?

.

Solar declination is the obvious naming.

.

The seasons could be named according to the solar declination. 

.

I suggest that months could be named according to their order in a season. For instance, in some of the calendars whose “Today’s Dates” I posted yesterday, today’s date is in the month of Northward2 (Autumn2, north of the equator).

.

How well that would go over depends on when you’re proposing it for. If you’re saying that right now, people wouldn’t want to get rid of the Roman month-names, you’re probably right. That’s why I’d propose 30,30,31 with Roman month-names, and it’s why other 12-month calendars usually keep those month-names.

.

Whether or not people will want a seasonally month-named calendar anytime soon, how would I know? 

.

All that’s known is that evidently no one wants or cares about calendar-reform at all. What will “be well received”?  No calendar-reform is getting a good reception.  Practically no one cares about calendar-reform at all.

.

[quote]
P.S.  Better check the length of your messages, otherwise the next one
will be over 60 Kb.

[/quote]

.

Peter keeps harping on that.  I’ll remind Peter that including a long history of past messages in a conversation is a practice of mailers, not individuals. Presumably the mailers have that attribute because it’s assumed that people want a long history of past messages in a conversation. Maybe it’s felt that, if the past-message-history is “hidden”, then it won’t be a problem—except to Peter.

.

Peter forgets that, when I send, to the list, a message that has such a long history of past messages, that’s only because the person I’m replying to has also sent such a message to the list.

.

Peter also forgets that I’ve recently mostly been only copying the lines that I reply to.

.

Michael Ossipofff

 



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Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

Christoph Päper-2
In reply to this post by Michael Ossipoff
Michael Ossipoff:
>
>> Are you aware that the usual four European/U.S. seasons, Winter,
>> Spring, Summer and Autumn, only occur in temperate climate zones?
>
> 1. Is Peter aware that most people live in temperate-zones?

Check your world map again. It might still be a majority, but a small one, since, e.g., all of Africa, India, Oceania and also many of the populated areas of the Americas and China are not in temperate areas (despite some being in the respective zones).

> There aren’t a whole lot of possibilities for an international seasonal calendar.

To be precise, there are zero. That is, if we are talking about climatical or meteorological seasons. You can certainly define astronomic seasons, sidereal or tropical.

> All that’s known is that evidently no one wants or cares about
> calendar-reform at all.

Many people are annoyed with this inconvenience or that quirk of the current calendar. Quite frequently, random people come up with ideas to fix these problems they recognize. Almost all of them neglect, forget or miss other issues. Nevertheless, their proposals are usually quite similar (e.g. 13*28) and based in their local customs (e.g. Sunday start in the US).

> What will “be well received”?  No calendar-reform is getting a good reception.

We are lacking actual empirical data, but it does seem so from anecdotal data.

> Practically no one cares about calendar-reform at all.

Indeed, over all, there is no public eagerness for calendar reform.

> I’ll remind Peter that including a long history of past messages in a conversation
> is a practice of mailers, not individuals.

On mailing lists, individual participants are expected to cut those parts they are not directly responding to. Their mailers cannot really know which ones these are. Some apps will only quote a specific part of the message you are responding to if it is highlighted when hitting "reply".

> Presumably the mailers have that attribute because it’s
> assumed that people want a long history of past messages in a conversation.

We have all received and (if we wanted) read those messages already.
Full-quoting is generally frowned upon.
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Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

Michael Ossipoff
In reply to this post by k.palmen@btinternet.com

Karl said:

.

[quote]

This topic has got me to think about the main reason I like months of 4 or 5 weeks for a leap week calendar. The leap week can be accommodated in such a month system. This would not work for months of 30 & 31 days

[/quote]

.

Sure it would.  A common 30.30.31 year has 31 days in December.  A leap-year has 38 days in December (or a 31-day December followed by an 8-day “Xtra”

.

[quote]

, nor for months of 28 days unless the leap weeks were assembled into leap months.

[/quote]

.

No, there’d be no need for leap-months.

.

In a leapyear, the last month of 28X13 would have 5 weeks instead of 4.   …or an extra week would just be added after the 13th month…equivalent to H&H’s “Xtra”.  Likewise 28&14.

.

In any case, with the simple and natural generalized Nearest-Monday wording, it isn’t even necessary to mention leapyears or leapweeks when introducing the alternative calendars to people.

.

[quote]

Also Michael's suggested month names would work with such a calendar.

[/quote]

.

People here don’t seem to like the declination-based naming such as “Northward”, etc.  And it might not be well-liked publicly. So I’ve changed it to the familiar season-names, but with the addition pre-Spring and pre-Autumn, and preceded by a letter denoting whether it’s for north or south of the equator.

.

Hence today’s 28&14 date of N. Autumn3 2nd,  or N. Autumn3 Week 1  Tuesday.

.

(For a calendar with months (arguably desirable for a seasonal calendar), I like, and have adopted, the naming by week that you suggested and use in your proposal.)

.

Of course, actually, if ISO WeekDate were the adopted civil-calendar, there’d be nothing stopping calendar-publishers from adding named seasonal-divisions, and day-names—like those in French-Republican--even though those additions wouldn’t be part of official WeekDate date-designation.  …for particular regions, or countries, or temperate-regions overall.  Maybe they’d agree on some conventional namings.

---------------------------------

For a seasonal calendar, I propose a South-Solstice year-start (but I like a North-Solstice year-start too).

.

From the Wikipedia “Seasons” article, here are a few quotes, regarding some wide agreement about the 4-seasons interpretation of the Roman months, and about 6 seasons:

.

[quote]

In 1780 the Societas Meteorologica Palatina (which became defunct in 1795), an early international organization for meteorology, defined seasons as groupings of three whole months as identified by the Gregorian calendar. Ever since, professional meteorologists all over the world have used this definition.[10] Therefore, for temperate areas in the northern hemisphere, spring begins on 1 March, summer on 1 June, autumn on 1 September, and winter on 1 December. For the southern hemisphere temperate zone, spring begins on 1 September, summer on 1 December, autumn on 1 March, and winter on 1 June.

.

[…]

.

I agree about Summer and Winter, but of course it’s implausible to say that Spring starts March 1 and Autumn on September 1.   Hence the need for Pre-Spring and Pre-Autumn. I’d call March “Pre-Spring” and September “Pre-Autumn”.

.

…in a 12-month calendar.

--------------------------------------------

Continuing quotes from Wikipedia’s “Seasons” article:

.

[quote]

Ecologists often use a six-season model for temperate climate regions: prevernal, vernal, estival, serotinal, autumnal, and hibernal.

[/quote]

-------------------------------------------

Seasonal-systems with 6 seasons are widely used in Asia, by Australia’s indigenous population, and by Native American peoples.

.

So, my designation of (northern) Winter starting with December,  and Summer starting with June, isn’t new, or peculiar to me.

.

Neither is my suggestion of 6 seasons. In fact the season-name “Pre-Spring” is used by others.

.

N. Autumn3 Week 1 Tuesday

.

6 Frimaire CCXXVII

Mâche Lettuce

.

Michael Ossipoff

 

 

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Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

Michael Ossipoff
Typo:

When I said: " A leap-year has 38 days in December (or a 31-day December followed by an 8-day “Xtra”"....

of course I meant "...a 7-day Xtra".

Michael Ossipoff

On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 1:49 PM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

Karl said:

.

[quote]

This topic has got me to think about the main reason I like months of 4 or 5 weeks for a leap week calendar. The leap week can be accommodated in such a month system. This would not work for months of 30 & 31 days

[/quote]

.

Sure it would.  A common 30.30.31 year has 31 days in December.  A leap-year has 38 days in December (or a 31-day December followed by an 8-day “Xtra”

.

[quote]

, nor for months of 28 days unless the leap weeks were assembled into leap months.

[/quote]

.

No, there’d be no need for leap-months.

.

In a leapyear, the last month of 28X13 would have 5 weeks instead of 4.   …or an extra week would just be added after the 13th month…equivalent to H&H’s “Xtra”.  Likewise 28&14.

.

In any case, with the simple and natural generalized Nearest-Monday wording, it isn’t even necessary to mention leapyears or leapweeks when introducing the alternative calendars to people.

.

[quote]

Also Michael's suggested month names would work with such a calendar.

[/quote]

.

People here don’t seem to like the declination-based naming such as “Northward”, etc.  And it might not be well-liked publicly. So I’ve changed it to the familiar season-names, but with the addition pre-Spring and pre-Autumn, and preceded by a letter denoting whether it’s for north or south of the equator.

.

Hence today’s 28&14 date of N. Autumn3 2nd,  or N. Autumn3 Week 1  Tuesday.

.

(For a calendar with months (arguably desirable for a seasonal calendar), I like, and have adopted, the naming by week that you suggested and use in your proposal.)

.

Of course, actually, if ISO WeekDate were the adopted civil-calendar, there’d be nothing stopping calendar-publishers from adding named seasonal-divisions, and day-names—like those in French-Republican--even though those additions wouldn’t be part of official WeekDate date-designation.  …for particular regions, or countries, or temperate-regions overall.  Maybe they’d agree on some conventional namings.

---------------------------------

For a seasonal calendar, I propose a South-Solstice year-start (but I like a North-Solstice year-start too).

.

From the Wikipedia “Seasons” article, here are a few quotes, regarding some wide agreement about the 4-seasons interpretation of the Roman months, and about 6 seasons:

.

[quote]

In 1780 the Societas Meteorologica Palatina (which became defunct in 1795), an early international organization for meteorology, defined seasons as groupings of three whole months as identified by the Gregorian calendar. Ever since, professional meteorologists all over the world have used this definition.[10] Therefore, for temperate areas in the northern hemisphere, spring begins on 1 March, summer on 1 June, autumn on 1 September, and winter on 1 December. For the southern hemisphere temperate zone, spring begins on 1 September, summer on 1 December, autumn on 1 March, and winter on 1 June.

.

[…]

.

I agree about Summer and Winter, but of course it’s implausible to say that Spring starts March 1 and Autumn on September 1.   Hence the need for Pre-Spring and Pre-Autumn. I’d call March “Pre-Spring” and September “Pre-Autumn”.

.

…in a 12-month calendar.

--------------------------------------------

Continuing quotes from Wikipedia’s “Seasons” article:

.

[quote]

Ecologists often use a six-season model for temperate climate regions: prevernal, vernal, estival, serotinal, autumnal, and hibernal.

[/quote]

-------------------------------------------

Seasonal-systems with 6 seasons are widely used in Asia, by Australia’s indigenous population, and by Native American peoples.

.

So, my designation of (northern) Winter starting with December,  and Summer starting with June, isn’t new, or peculiar to me.

.

Neither is my suggestion of 6 seasons. In fact the season-name “Pre-Spring” is used by others.

.

N. Autumn3 Week 1 Tuesday

.

6 Frimaire CCXXVII

Mâche Lettuce

.

Michael Ossipoff

 

 

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Really 30, 31 & 38 Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

k.palmen@btinternet.com
In reply to this post by Michael Ossipoff
Dear Michael and Calendar People
----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 27/11/2018 - 18:49 (GMT)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: Improvement in 28X13. Even # of months, better seasonal-calendar.

Karl said:

.

[quote]

This topic has got me to think about the main reason I like months of 4 or 5 weeks for a leap week calendar. The leap week can be accommodated in such a month system. This would not work for months of 30 & 31 days

[/quote]

.

Sure it would.  A common 30.30.31 year has 31 days in December.  A leap-year has 38 days in December (or a 31-day December followed by an 8-day “Xtra”

.

KARL REPLIES: No it would not! You have a month of 38 days! What I meant by a leap week would not work for months of 30 & 31 days is that it would cause some month to have some other number of days or the leap week would not be accommodated in a month. Of course it would work for months of 30, 31 & 38 days.


Karl


Wednesday Epsilon November 2018

 

 



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