Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

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Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

Karl Palmen

Dear Amos and Calendar People

 

So before the Babylonian conquest, the Israelites could have used a solar calendar similar to the Egyptian calendar. To keep Passover in the spring, days would need to be added to the years at about one day every 4 years. Then after the Babylonian conquest they use a lunisolar calendar based on the Babylonian calendar and using their mean lunar month, which is defined in their base-60 counting system.

 

Karl

 

16(02(03

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 29 September 2016 16:17
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

 

Hi Karl and calendar people,

The verse Aristeo quotes in this document is the one in which Moses orders the Israelites to celebrate Passover in spring time; that means that whatever calendar was used at the time, it had to follow the seasons -- either a purely solar one, or luni-solar.

How Aristeo can use that very verse to reach a diametrically opposite conclusion -- that the calendar was purely lunar and was drifting around the seasons -- is probably beyond human comprehension.

Amos.

 

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Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

Amos Shapir-2
Hi Karl and calendar people,

Actually, Jews do employ a solar calendar similar to the Julian one, but it does not define leap days since only two observances use it -- a special prayer for rain on (Julian) Dec. 5 (if no rains occurred until this day), and the Blessing of the Sun on March 25 once in 28 years.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_Hachama for more details about it.

Amos.

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 3:01 PM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Amos and Calendar People

 

So before the Babylonian conquest, the Israelites could have used a solar calendar similar to the Egyptian calendar. To keep Passover in the spring, days would need to be added to the years at about one day every 4 years. Then after the Babylonian conquest they use a lunisolar calendar based on the Babylonian calendar and using their mean lunar month, which is defined in their base-60 counting system.

 

Karl

 

16(02(03

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 29 September 2016 16:17
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

 

Hi Karl and calendar people,

The verse Aristeo quotes in this document is the one in which Moses orders the Israelites to celebrate Passover in spring time; that means that whatever calendar was used at the time, it had to follow the seasons -- either a purely solar one, or luni-solar.

How Aristeo can use that very verse to reach a diametrically opposite conclusion -- that the calendar was purely lunar and was drifting around the seasons -- is probably beyond human comprehension.

Amos.

 




--
Amos Shapir
 
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Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

Karl Palmen

Dear Amos and Calendar People

 

I recall the Birkat Hachama. Does it pre-date the Julian calendar?

Could it have been originally based on a pre-Babylonian calendar based on the Egyptian calendar but with a leap day once every 4 years?

Could it have been originally based on a Qumran leap week calendar with five leap weeks every 28 years?

 

Karl

 

16(02(04

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 05 October 2016 16:07
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

 

Hi Karl and calendar people,

Actually, Jews do employ a solar calendar similar to the Julian one, but it does not define leap days since only two observances use it -- a special prayer for rain on (Julian) Dec. 5 (if no rains occurred until this day), and the Blessing of the Sun on March 25 once in 28 years.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_Hachama for more details about it.

Amos.

 

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 3:01 PM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Amos and Calendar People

 

So before the Babylonian conquest, the Israelites could have used a solar calendar similar to the Egyptian calendar. To keep Passover in the spring, days would need to be added to the years at about one day every 4 years. Then after the Babylonian conquest they use a lunisolar calendar based on the Babylonian calendar and using their mean lunar month, which is defined in their base-60 counting system.

 

Karl

 

16(02(03

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 29 September 2016 16:17
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

 

Hi Karl and calendar people,

The verse Aristeo quotes in this document is the one in which Moses orders the Israelites to celebrate Passover in spring time; that means that whatever calendar was used at the time, it had to follow the seasons -- either a purely solar one, or luni-solar.

How Aristeo can use that very verse to reach a diametrically opposite conclusion -- that the calendar was purely lunar and was drifting around the seasons -- is probably beyond human comprehension.

Amos.

 




--

Amos Shapir

 

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Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

Amos Shapir-2
Hi Karl,

There is discussion of some of these points in the link I've included; basically this calendar follows the vernal equinox by quarter-days, so no leap day is defined per se.  According to some suggestion, its epoch is Jewish year 3421 = 340 BC.

Amos.

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 6:24 PM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Amos and Calendar People

 

I recall the Birkat Hachama. Does it pre-date the Julian calendar?

Could it have been originally based on a pre-Babylonian calendar based on the Egyptian calendar but with a leap day once every 4 years?

Could it have been originally based on a Qumran leap week calendar with five leap weeks every 28 years?

 

Karl

 

16(02(04

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 05 October 2016 16:07
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

 

Hi Karl and calendar people,

Actually, Jews do employ a solar calendar similar to the Julian one, but it does not define leap days since only two observances use it -- a special prayer for rain on (Julian) Dec. 5 (if no rains occurred until this day), and the Blessing of the Sun on March 25 once in 28 years.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_Hachama for more details about it.

Amos.

 

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 3:01 PM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Amos and Calendar People

 

So before the Babylonian conquest, the Israelites could have used a solar calendar similar to the Egyptian calendar. To keep Passover in the spring, days would need to be added to the years at about one day every 4 years. Then after the Babylonian conquest they use a lunisolar calendar based on the Babylonian calendar and using their mean lunar month, which is defined in their base-60 counting system.

 

Karl

 

16(02(03

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 29 September 2016 16:17
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

 

Hi Karl and calendar people,

The verse Aristeo quotes in this document is the one in which Moses orders the Israelites to celebrate Passover in spring time; that means that whatever calendar was used at the time, it had to follow the seasons -- either a purely solar one, or luni-solar.

How Aristeo can use that very verse to reach a diametrically opposite conclusion -- that the calendar was purely lunar and was drifting around the seasons -- is probably beyond human comprehension.

Amos.

 




--

Amos Shapir

 




--
Amos Shapir
 
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Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

Karl Palmen

Dear Amos and Calendar People

 

Thank you Amos for your reply.

 

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_Hachama#How_the_date_is_calculated the year is 52 weeks, 1 day and 6 hours = 365.25 days. The fractional day would not matter for something celebrated just once every 28 years.

 

340 BC was before the Julian Calendar and possibly before the attempted Alexandrian reform of the Egyptian calendar, but was this celebrated according to current rules from 340 BC?

The section https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_Hachama#The_vernal_equinox suggests by stating that the date was fixed at March 25 in the Julian Calendar. This may have simply been the traditional date converted to the Julian calendar rather than a new date. Bearing in mind that it was celebrated just once every 28 years, it would occur on a fixed date in any calendar that has a leap day once every 4 years, regardless of when that leap day occurs.

 

I show the date (March 25) in the proleptic Gregorian Calendar:

March 23, 101 BC to 99 AD

March 22, 201 BC to 102 BC

March 21, 301 BC to 202 BC

March 20, 501 BC to 302 BC

So this fits into the idea that the equinox was last measured around 340 BC (AM 3421).

In reading the Wikipedia article, it seems that the measurement took place 4 years earlier in AM 3417 and was recorded in the Talmud.

 

 

I was concerned about the existence of a Hebrew Solar Calendar before the Babylonian times well before 340 BC. I expect in 340 BC it would be remembered that a leap day was added once every 4 years, but forgotten when the leap day occurred. Birkat Hachama is conveniently scheduled so this does not matter. Nor would it matter if the solar calendar were a leap week calendar with 5 leap weeks every 28 years or if the solar calendar were subject to postponement rules while using a solar equivalent to a molad whose interval is 365.25 days.

 

 

Karl

 

16(01(05

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 05 October 2016 16:32
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

 

Hi Karl,

There is discussion of some of these points in the link I've included; basically this calendar follows the vernal equinox by quarter-days, so no leap day is defined per se.  According to some suggestion, its epoch is Jewish year 3421 = 340 BC.

Amos.

 

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 6:24 PM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Amos and Calendar People

 

I recall the Birkat Hachama. Does it pre-date the Julian calendar?

Could it have been originally based on a pre-Babylonian calendar based on the Egyptian calendar but with a leap day once every 4 years?

Could it have been originally based on a Qumran leap week calendar with five leap weeks every 28 years?

 

Karl

 

16(02(04

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 05 October 2016 16:07
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

 

Hi Karl and calendar people,

Actually, Jews do employ a solar calendar similar to the Julian one, but it does not define leap days since only two observances use it -- a special prayer for rain on (Julian) Dec. 5 (if no rains occurred until this day), and the Blessing of the Sun on March 25 once in 28 years.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_Hachama for more details about it.

Amos.

 

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 3:01 PM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Amos and Calendar People

 

So before the Babylonian conquest, the Israelites could have used a solar calendar similar to the Egyptian calendar. To keep Passover in the spring, days would need to be added to the years at about one day every 4 years. Then after the Babylonian conquest they use a lunisolar calendar based on the Babylonian calendar and using their mean lunar month, which is defined in their base-60 counting system.

 

Karl

 

16(02(03

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 29 September 2016 16:17
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

 

Hi Karl and calendar people,

The verse Aristeo quotes in this document is the one in which Moses orders the Israelites to celebrate Passover in spring time; that means that whatever calendar was used at the time, it had to follow the seasons -- either a purely solar one, or luni-solar.

How Aristeo can use that very verse to reach a diametrically opposite conclusion -- that the calendar was purely lunar and was drifting around the seasons -- is probably beyond human comprehension.

Amos.

 




--

Amos Shapir

 




--

Amos Shapir

 

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Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

Amos Shapir-2
Hi Karl and calendar people,

The exact placement of a leap day in the solar Jewish calendar does not matter for the Blessing of the Sun, but it does for the Prayer for Rain, which occurs more often.  As explained in "Why Is the Prayer for Rain Based on the Civil Calendar", the leap day is inserted on the year before the leap year of the Julian calendar, though it's impossible to determine on which date.

Amos.

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Amos and Calendar People

 

Thank you Amos for your reply.

 

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_Hachama#How_the_date_is_calculated the year is 52 weeks, 1 day and 6 hours = 365.25 days. The fractional day would not matter for something celebrated just once every 28 years.

 

340 BC was before the Julian Calendar and possibly before the attempted Alexandrian reform of the Egyptian calendar, but was this celebrated according to current rules from 340 BC?

The section https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_Hachama#The_vernal_equinox suggests by stating that the date was fixed at March 25 in the Julian Calendar. This may have simply been the traditional date converted to the Julian calendar rather than a new date. Bearing in mind that it was celebrated just once every 28 years, it would occur on a fixed date in any calendar that has a leap day once every 4 years, regardless of when that leap day occurs.

 

I show the date (March 25) in the proleptic Gregorian Calendar:

March 23, 101 BC to 99 AD

March 22, 201 BC to 102 BC

March 21, 301 BC to 202 BC

March 20, 501 BC to 302 BC

So this fits into the idea that the equinox was last measured around 340 BC (AM 3421).

In reading the Wikipedia article, it seems that the measurement took place 4 years earlier in AM 3417 and was recorded in the Talmud.

 

 

I was concerned about the existence of a Hebrew Solar Calendar before the Babylonian times well before 340 BC. I expect in 340 BC it would be remembered that a leap day was added once every 4 years, but forgotten when the leap day occurred. Birkat Hachama is conveniently scheduled so this does not matter. Nor would it matter if the solar calendar were a leap week calendar with 5 leap weeks every 28 years or if the solar calendar were subject to postponement rules while using a solar equivalent to a molad whose interval is 365.25 days.

 

 

Karl

 

16(01(05

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 05 October 2016 16:32
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

 

Hi Karl,

There is discussion of some of these points in the link I've included; basically this calendar follows the vernal equinox by quarter-days, so no leap day is defined per se.  According to some suggestion, its epoch is Jewish year 3421 = 340 BC.

Amos.

 

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 6:24 PM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Amos and Calendar People

 

I recall the Birkat Hachama. Does it pre-date the Julian calendar?

Could it have been originally based on a pre-Babylonian calendar based on the Egyptian calendar but with a leap day once every 4 years?

Could it have been originally based on a Qumran leap week calendar with five leap weeks every 28 years?

 

Karl

 

16(02(04

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 05 October 2016 16:07
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

 

Hi Karl and calendar people,

Actually, Jews do employ a solar calendar similar to the Julian one, but it does not define leap days since only two observances use it -- a special prayer for rain on (Julian) Dec. 5 (if no rains occurred until this day), and the Blessing of the Sun on March 25 once in 28 years.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_Hachama for more details about it.

Amos.

 

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 3:01 PM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Amos and Calendar People

 

So before the Babylonian conquest, the Israelites could have used a solar calendar similar to the Egyptian calendar. To keep Passover in the spring, days would need to be added to the years at about one day every 4 years. Then after the Babylonian conquest they use a lunisolar calendar based on the Babylonian calendar and using their mean lunar month, which is defined in their base-60 counting system.

 

Karl

 

16(02(03

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 29 September 2016 16:17
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

 

Hi Karl and calendar people,

The verse Aristeo quotes in this document is the one in which Moses orders the Israelites to celebrate Passover in spring time; that means that whatever calendar was used at the time, it had to follow the seasons -- either a purely solar one, or luni-solar.

How Aristeo can use that very verse to reach a diametrically opposite conclusion -- that the calendar was purely lunar and was drifting around the seasons -- is probably beyond human comprehension.

Amos.

 




--

Amos Shapir

 




--

Amos Shapir

 




--
Amos Shapir
 
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Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

Karl Palmen

Dear Amos and Calendar People

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 06 October 2016 15:51
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

 

Hi Karl and calendar people,

The exact placement of a leap day in the solar Jewish calendar does not matter for the Blessing of the Sun, but it does for the Prayer for Rain, which occurs more often.  As explained in "Why Is the Prayer for Rain Based on the Civil Calendar", the leap day is inserted on the year before the leap year of the Julian calendar, though it's impossible to determine on which date.

The actual reform of the Egyptian calendar, which today survives as the Coptic and Egyptian calendars has the leap day in the Julian year before the leap year in the Julian calendar.

However the link contradicts that and places the rain prayer on Julian November 22 every year 60 days after September 24 and so the leap day must occur within the year ending at Julian September 23 of a Julian leap year, which is almost a month too late to accommodate the Coptic and Ethiopian leap day. Also I make November 22 to be 59 days after September 24. Maybe inclusive counting was done (Sep 24 = 1, Sep 25 =2, … Nov 22 = 60).

Karl

16(01(05

 

Amos.

 

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Amos and Calendar People

 

Thank you Amos for your reply.

 

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_Hachama#How_the_date_is_calculated the year is 52 weeks, 1 day and 6 hours = 365.25 days. The fractional day would not matter for something celebrated just once every 28 years.

 

340 BC was before the Julian Calendar and possibly before the attempted Alexandrian reform of the Egyptian calendar, but was this celebrated according to current rules from 340 BC?

The section https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_Hachama#The_vernal_equinox suggests by stating that the date was fixed at March 25 in the Julian Calendar. This may have simply been the traditional date converted to the Julian calendar rather than a new date. Bearing in mind that it was celebrated just once every 28 years, it would occur on a fixed date in any calendar that has a leap day once every 4 years, regardless of when that leap day occurs.

 

I show the date (March 25) in the proleptic Gregorian Calendar:

March 23, 101 BC to 99 AD

March 22, 201 BC to 102 BC

March 21, 301 BC to 202 BC

March 20, 501 BC to 302 BC

So this fits into the idea that the equinox was last measured around 340 BC (AM 3421).

In reading the Wikipedia article, it seems that the measurement took place 4 years earlier in AM 3417 and was recorded in the Talmud.

 

 

I was concerned about the existence of a Hebrew Solar Calendar before the Babylonian times well before 340 BC. I expect in 340 BC it would be remembered that a leap day was added once every 4 years, but forgotten when the leap day occurred. Birkat Hachama is conveniently scheduled so this does not matter. Nor would it matter if the solar calendar were a leap week calendar with 5 leap weeks every 28 years or if the solar calendar were subject to postponement rules while using a solar equivalent to a molad whose interval is 365.25 days.

 

 

Karl

 

16(01(05

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 05 October 2016 16:32
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

 

Hi Karl,

There is discussion of some of these points in the link I've included; basically this calendar follows the vernal equinox by quarter-days, so no leap day is defined per se.  According to some suggestion, its epoch is Jewish year 3421 = 340 BC.

Amos.

 

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 6:24 PM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Amos and Calendar People

 

I recall the Birkat Hachama. Does it pre-date the Julian calendar?

Could it have been originally based on a pre-Babylonian calendar based on the Egyptian calendar but with a leap day once every 4 years?

Could it have been originally based on a Qumran leap week calendar with five leap weeks every 28 years?

 

Karl

 

16(02(04

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 05 October 2016 16:07
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

 

Hi Karl and calendar people,

Actually, Jews do employ a solar calendar similar to the Julian one, but it does not define leap days since only two observances use it -- a special prayer for rain on (Julian) Dec. 5 (if no rains occurred until this day), and the Blessing of the Sun on March 25 once in 28 years.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_Hachama for more details about it.

Amos.

 

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 3:01 PM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Amos and Calendar People

 

So before the Babylonian conquest, the Israelites could have used a solar calendar similar to the Egyptian calendar. To keep Passover in the spring, days would need to be added to the years at about one day every 4 years. Then after the Babylonian conquest they use a lunisolar calendar based on the Babylonian calendar and using their mean lunar month, which is defined in their base-60 counting system.

 

Karl

 

16(02(03

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 29 September 2016 16:17
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

 

Hi Karl and calendar people,

The verse Aristeo quotes in this document is the one in which Moses orders the Israelites to celebrate Passover in spring time; that means that whatever calendar was used at the time, it had to follow the seasons -- either a purely solar one, or luni-solar.

How Aristeo can use that very verse to reach a diametrically opposite conclusion -- that the calendar was purely lunar and was drifting around the seasons -- is probably beyond human comprehension.

Amos.

 




--

Amos Shapir

 




--

Amos Shapir

 




--

Amos Shapir

 

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Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

Walter J Ziobro
Dear Karl and Amos, and Calendar people:

There is one other solar calendar from the Middle East that has influenced Jewish practice.  This is the Pentecontad Calendar:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecontad_calendar

In it's classic form, it had 7 50-day periods, plus an extra short period of 15 or 16 days.

The fifty day counts were used to determine Shavout among the Jews, and Pentecost among Christians (altho in both cases it was applied to the lunisolar calendar).  And, the counting in both cases was "inclusive" such that the interval was actually 49 days, or 7 weeks.

It's impact can also be seen on the Qumran calendar of the Essenes, by which count they measured the various agricultural feasts.  This latter fact leads me to conclude that the Qumran calendar must have had some sort of leap rule to keep the agricultural feasts in the appropriate seasons.

Perhaps Ariteo's revealed dates can be reconciled with the Pentecontad calendar.

-Walter Ziobro



-----Original Message-----
From: Karl Palmen <[hidden email]>
To: CALNDR-L <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thu, Oct 6, 2016 11:26 am
Subject: Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

Dear Amos and Calendar People
 
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 06 October 2016 15:51
To: CALNDR-[hidden email]
Subject: Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...
 
Hi Karl and calendar people,
The exact placement of a leap day in the solar Jewish calendar does not matter for the Blessing of the Sun, but it does for the Prayer for Rain, which occurs more often.  As explained in "Why Is the Prayer for Rain Based on the Civil Calendar", the leap day is inserted on the year before the leap year of the Julian calendar, though it's impossible to determine on which date.
The actual reform of the Egyptian calendar, which today survives as the Coptic and Egyptian calendars has the leap day in the Julian year before the leap year in the Julian calendar.
However the link contradicts that and places the rain prayer on Julian November 22 every year 60 days after September 24 and so the leap day must occur within the year ending at Julian September 23 of a Julian leap year, which is almost a month too late to accommodate the Coptic and Ethiopian leap day. Also I make November 22 to be 59 days after September 24. Maybe inclusive counting was done (Sep 24 = 1, Sep 25 =2, … Nov 22 = 60).
Karl
16(01(05
 
Amos.
 
On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Amos and Calendar People
 
Thank you Amos for your reply.
 
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_Hachama#How_the_date_is_calculated the year is 52 weeks, 1 day and 6 hours = 365.25 days. The fractional day would not matter for something celebrated just once every 28 years.
 
340 BC was before the Julian Calendar and possibly before the attempted Alexandrian reform of the Egyptian calendar, but was this celebrated according to current rules from 340 BC?
The section https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_Hachama#The_vernal_equinox suggests by stating that the date was fixed at March 25 in the Julian Calendar. This may have simply been the traditional date converted to the Julian calendar rather than a new date. Bearing in mind that it was celebrated just once every 28 years, it would occur on a fixed date in any calendar that has a leap day once every 4 years, regardless of when that leap day occurs.
 
I show the date (March 25) in the proleptic Gregorian Calendar:
March 23, 101 BC to 99 AD
March 22, 201 BC to 102 BC
March 21, 301 BC to 202 BC
March 20, 501 BC to 302 BC
So this fits into the idea that the equinox was last measured around 340 BC (AM 3421).
In reading the Wikipedia article, it seems that the measurement took place 4 years earlier in AM 3417 and was recorded in the Talmud.
 
 
I was concerned about the existence of a Hebrew Solar Calendar before the Babylonian times well before 340 BC. I expect in 340 BC it would be remembered that a leap day was added once every 4 years, but forgotten when the leap day occurred. Birkat Hachama is conveniently scheduled so this does not matter. Nor would it matter if the solar calendar were a leap week calendar with 5 leap weeks every 28 years or if the solar calendar were subject to postponement rules while using a solar equivalent to a molad whose interval is 365.25 days.
 
 
Karl
 
16(01(05
 
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 05 October 2016 16:32
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...
 
Hi Karl,
There is discussion of some of these points in the link I've included; basically this calendar follows the vernal equinox by quarter-days, so no leap day is defined per se.  According to some suggestion, its epoch is Jewish year 3421 = 340 BC.
Amos.
 
On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 6:24 PM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Amos and Calendar People
 
I recall the Birkat Hachama. Does it pre-date the Julian calendar?
Could it have been originally based on a pre-Babylonian calendar based on the Egyptian calendar but with a leap day once every 4 years?
Could it have been originally based on a Qumran leap week calendar with five leap weeks every 28 years?
 
Karl
 
16(02(04
 
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 05 October 2016 16:07
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...
 
Hi Karl and calendar people,
Actually, Jews do employ a solar calendar similar to the Julian one, but it does not define leap days since only two observances use it -- a special prayer for rain on (Julian) Dec. 5 (if no rains occurred until this day), and the Blessing of the Sun on March 25 once in 28 years.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_Hachama for more details about it.
Amos.
 
On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 3:01 PM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear Amos and Calendar People
 
So before the Babylonian conquest, the Israelites could have used a solar calendar similar to the Egyptian calendar. To keep Passover in the spring, days would need to be added to the years at about one day every 4 years. Then after the Babylonian conquest they use a lunisolar calendar based on the Babylonian calendar and using their mean lunar month, which is defined in their base-60 counting system.
 
Karl
 
16(02(03
 
From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 29 September 2016 16:17
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2
 
Hi Karl and calendar people,
The verse Aristeo quotes in this document is the one in which Moses orders the Israelites to celebrate Passover in spring time; that means that whatever calendar was used at the time, it had to follow the seasons -- either a purely solar one, or luni-solar.
How Aristeo can use that very verse to reach a diametrically opposite conclusion -- that the calendar was purely lunar and was drifting around the seasons -- is probably beyond human comprehension.
Amos.
 



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Amos Shapir
 



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Amos Shapir
 



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Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

Karl Palmen

Dear Walter and Calendar People

 

The Pentecontad Calendar may have survived in Somalia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_calendar

The structure of the year is explained in

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_calendar#Structure

There is no mention of leap years or their absence.

 

Does any calendar person know more about the Somali calendar?

The Wikipedia page needs improvement.

 

Concerning the Qumran calendar, I’m inclined to the view there was no intercalation and the agricultural festivals were moved through the calendar year at an average rate of two months later per Jubilee of 49 Calendar years.

 

Karl

 

16(02(06

 

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Walter J Ziobro
Sent: 07 October 2016 04:36
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

 

Dear Karl and Amos, and Calendar people:

There is one other solar calendar from the Middle East that has influenced Jewish practice.  This is the Pentecontad Calendar:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecontad_calendar

In its classic form, it had 7 50-day periods, plus an extra short period of 15 or 16 days.

The fifty day counts were used to determine Shavout among the Jews, and Pentecost among Christians (altho in both cases it was applied to the lunisolar calendar).  And, the counting in both cases was "inclusive" such that the interval was actually 49 days, or 7 weeks.

It's impact can also be seen on the Qumran calendar of the Essenes, by which count they measured the various agricultural feasts.  This latter fact leads me to conclude that the Qumran calendar must have had some sort of leap rule to keep the agricultural feasts in the appropriate seasons.

Perhaps Ariteo's revealed dates can be reconciled with the Pentecontad calendar.

-Walter Ziobro

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Karl Palmen <[hidden email]>
To: CALNDR-L <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thu, Oct 6, 2016 11:26 am
Subject: Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

Dear Amos and Calendar People

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 06 October 2016 15:51
To: CALNDR-[hidden email]
Subject: Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

 

Hi Karl and calendar people,

The exact placement of a leap day in the solar Jewish calendar does not matter for the Blessing of the Sun, but it does for the Prayer for Rain, which occurs more often.  As explained in "Why Is the Prayer for Rain Based on the Civil Calendar", the leap day is inserted on the year before the leap year of the Julian calendar, though it's impossible to determine on which date.

The actual reform of the Egyptian calendar, which today survives as the Coptic and Egyptian calendars has the leap day in the Julian year before the leap year in the Julian calendar.

However the link contradicts that and places the rain prayer on Julian November 22 every year 60 days after September 24 and so the leap day must occur within the year ending at Julian September 23 of a Julian leap year, which is almost a month too late to accommodate the Coptic and Ethiopian leap day. Also I make November 22 to be 59 days after September 24. Maybe inclusive counting was done (Sep 24 = 1, Sep 25 =2, … Nov 22 = 60).

Karl

16(01(05

 

Amos.

 

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Amos and Calendar People

 

Thank you Amos for your reply.

 

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_Hachama#How_the_date_is_calculated the year is 52 weeks, 1 day and 6 hours = 365.25 days. The fractional day would not matter for something celebrated just once every 28 years.

 

340 BC was before the Julian Calendar and possibly before the attempted Alexandrian reform of the Egyptian calendar, but was this celebrated according to current rules from 340 BC?

The section https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_Hachama#The_vernal_equinox suggests by stating that the date was fixed at March 25 in the Julian Calendar. This may have simply been the traditional date converted to the Julian calendar rather than a new date. Bearing in mind that it was celebrated just once every 28 years, it would occur on a fixed date in any calendar that has a leap day once every 4 years, regardless of when that leap day occurs.

 

I show the date (March 25) in the proleptic Gregorian Calendar:

March 23, 101 BC to 99 AD

March 22, 201 BC to 102 BC

March 21, 301 BC to 202 BC

March 20, 501 BC to 302 BC

So this fits into the idea that the equinox was last measured around 340 BC (AM 3421).

In reading the Wikipedia article, it seems that the measurement took place 4 years earlier in AM 3417 and was recorded in the Talmud.

 

 

I was concerned about the existence of a Hebrew Solar Calendar before the Babylonian times well before 340 BC. I expect in 340 BC it would be remembered that a leap day was added once every 4 years, but forgotten when the leap day occurred. Birkat Hachama is conveniently scheduled so this does not matter. Nor would it matter if the solar calendar were a leap week calendar with 5 leap weeks every 28 years or if the solar calendar were subject to postponement rules while using a solar equivalent to a molad whose interval is 365.25 days.

 

 

Karl

 

16(01(05

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 05 October 2016 16:32
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

 

Hi Karl,

There is discussion of some of these points in the link I've included; basically this calendar follows the vernal equinox by quarter-days, so no leap day is defined per se.  According to some suggestion, its epoch is Jewish year 3421 = 340 BC.

Amos.

 

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 6:24 PM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Amos and Calendar People

 

I recall the Birkat Hachama. Does it pre-date the Julian calendar?

Could it have been originally based on a pre-Babylonian calendar based on the Egyptian calendar but with a leap day once every 4 years?

Could it have been originally based on a Qumran leap week calendar with five leap weeks every 28 years?

 

Karl

 

16(02(04

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 05 October 2016 16:07
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

 

Hi Karl and calendar people,

Actually, Jews do employ a solar calendar similar to the Julian one, but it does not define leap days since only two observances use it -- a special prayer for rain on (Julian) Dec. 5 (if no rains occurred until this day), and the Blessing of the Sun on March 25 once in 28 years.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_Hachama for more details about it.

Amos.

 

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 3:01 PM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Amos and Calendar People

 

So before the Babylonian conquest, the Israelites could have used a solar calendar similar to the Egyptian calendar. To keep Passover in the spring, days would need to be added to the years at about one day every 4 years. Then after the Babylonian conquest they use a lunisolar calendar based on the Babylonian calendar and using their mean lunar month, which is defined in their base-60 counting system.

 

Karl

 

16(02(03

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 29 September 2016 16:17
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

 

Hi Karl and calendar people,

The verse Aristeo quotes in this document is the one in which Moses orders the Israelites to celebrate Passover in spring time; that means that whatever calendar was used at the time, it had to follow the seasons -- either a purely solar one, or luni-solar.

How Aristeo can use that very verse to reach a diametrically opposite conclusion -- that the calendar was purely lunar and was drifting around the seasons -- is probably beyond human comprehension.

Amos.

 




--

Amos Shapir

 




--

Amos Shapir

 




--

Amos Shapir

 

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Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

Karl Palmen
In reply to this post by Amos Shapir-2

Dear Amos, Walter and Calendar People

 

The issue of why use the Julian Calendar or some other solar calendar or a solar equivalent to a molad with 365.25 day interval rather than the Hebrew calendar for the prayer of rain.

 

The link says it’s because it would be simpler to calculate. This is true only if a solar calendar such as the Julian calendar already exists. Perhaps the Pentacontad calendar referred to by Walter could be have been used.

 

If there were no solar calendar available, one could use the Hebrew Calendar via epacts. I had suggested epacts for Hebrew years beginning with Adar or Adar II. The epact would be determined by the position of Tishri in the 19-year cycle and the following would do:

 

01 02 03  04 05 06  07 08  09 10 11  12 13 14  15 16 17  18 19

02 13 24  05 16 27  08 19  00 11 22  03 14 25  06 17 28  09 20

 

Then the rain prayer could be scheduled epact number of days after a fixed day in the Hebrew Calendar, which would be the day it occurs in the 9th year of the 19-year cycle.

 

Such a method could not be applied to Birkat Hachama, if it were desired for it to always occur on the same day of week. To stop it drifting later, one would occasionally need to change the interval from 28 years of 1461 weeks to some other interval such as 12 years of 626 weeks or 40 years of 2087 weeks. One could use 17 years of 887 weeks, but then for it to not drift with respect of the equinox, more 17s would be needed than 28s.

 

Karl

 

16(02(06

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 06 October 2016 15:51
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

 

Hi Karl and calendar people,

The exact placement of a leap day in the solar Jewish calendar does not matter for the Blessing of the Sun, but it does for the Prayer for Rain, which occurs more often.  As explained in "Why Is the Prayer for Rain Based on the Civil Calendar", the leap day is inserted on the year before the leap year of the Julian calendar, though it's impossible to determine on which date.

Amos.

 

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Amos and Calendar People

 

Thank you Amos for your reply.

 

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_Hachama#How_the_date_is_calculated the year is 52 weeks, 1 day and 6 hours = 365.25 days. The fractional day would not matter for something celebrated just once every 28 years.

 

340 BC was before the Julian Calendar and possibly before the attempted Alexandrian reform of the Egyptian calendar, but was this celebrated according to current rules from 340 BC?

The section https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_Hachama#The_vernal_equinox suggests by stating that the date was fixed at March 25 in the Julian Calendar. This may have simply been the traditional date converted to the Julian calendar rather than a new date. Bearing in mind that it was celebrated just once every 28 years, it would occur on a fixed date in any calendar that has a leap day once every 4 years, regardless of when that leap day occurs.

 

I show the date (March 25) in the proleptic Gregorian Calendar:

March 23, 101 BC to 99 AD

March 22, 201 BC to 102 BC

March 21, 301 BC to 202 BC

March 20, 501 BC to 302 BC

So this fits into the idea that the equinox was last measured around 340 BC (AM 3421).

In reading the Wikipedia article, it seems that the measurement took place 4 years earlier in AM 3417 and was recorded in the Talmud.

 

 

I was concerned about the existence of a Hebrew Solar Calendar before the Babylonian times well before 340 BC. I expect in 340 BC it would be remembered that a leap day was added once every 4 years, but forgotten when the leap day occurred. Birkat Hachama is conveniently scheduled so this does not matter. Nor would it matter if the solar calendar were a leap week calendar with 5 leap weeks every 28 years or if the solar calendar were subject to postponement rules while using a solar equivalent to a molad whose interval is 365.25 days.

 

 

Karl

 

16(01(05

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 05 October 2016 16:32
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

 

Hi Karl,

There is discussion of some of these points in the link I've included; basically this calendar follows the vernal equinox by quarter-days, so no leap day is defined per se.  According to some suggestion, its epoch is Jewish year 3421 = 340 BC.

Amos.

 

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 6:24 PM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Amos and Calendar People

 

I recall the Birkat Hachama. Does it pre-date the Julian calendar?

Could it have been originally based on a pre-Babylonian calendar based on the Egyptian calendar but with a leap day once every 4 years?

Could it have been originally based on a Qumran leap week calendar with five leap weeks every 28 years?

 

Karl

 

16(02(04

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 05 October 2016 16:07
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Hebrew Solar Calendar? RE: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: ...

 

Hi Karl and calendar people,

Actually, Jews do employ a solar calendar similar to the Julian one, but it does not define leap days since only two observances use it -- a special prayer for rain on (Julian) Dec. 5 (if no rains occurred until this day), and the Blessing of the Sun on March 25 once in 28 years.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_Hachama for more details about it.

Amos.

 

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 3:01 PM, Karl Palmen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Amos and Calendar People

 

So before the Babylonian conquest, the Israelites could have used a solar calendar similar to the Egyptian calendar. To keep Passover in the spring, days would need to be added to the years at about one day every 4 years. Then after the Babylonian conquest they use a lunisolar calendar based on the Babylonian calendar and using their mean lunar month, which is defined in their base-60 counting system.

 

Karl

 

16(02(03

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Amos Shapir
Sent: 29 September 2016 16:17
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Pure Lunar Hebrew Calendar Idea RE: Pre-Islamic Calendar RE: 3, -3-2-3-3-3-2

 

Hi Karl and calendar people,

The verse Aristeo quotes in this document is the one in which Moses orders the Israelites to celebrate Passover in spring time; that means that whatever calendar was used at the time, it had to follow the seasons -- either a purely solar one, or luni-solar.

How Aristeo can use that very verse to reach a diametrically opposite conclusion -- that the calendar was purely lunar and was drifting around the seasons -- is probably beyond human comprehension.

Amos.

 




--

Amos Shapir

 




--

Amos Shapir

 




--

Amos Shapir