Epoch of Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar

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Epoch of Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar

Peter Meyer
Walter asked why -4145 CE was chosen as the epoch year of the
Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar.  As it says at
https://www.hermetic.ch/cal_stud/nlsc/nlsc.htm#defn :

"This calendar was invented by Peter Meyer in March 1999 starting from
a general form of the above rule for long years etc. devised by Karl
Palmen and posted to the CALNDR-L mailing list on 1999-02-24."

The calendar was invented 20 years ago this month and I don't remember
why -4145 CE was chosen as the epoch year.  Perhaps Karl has a better
answer.

However, according to Stellarium, at 12:00 UTC on -4145-04-08 (=  
000-01-01-01 MP) the Moon was passing by the Pleiades (more exactly,
the right ascension of the Moon was the same as that of the Pleiades,
with a difference in declination of about 2 degrees, so close to
occultation).

Regards,
Peter
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Re: Epoch of Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar

Walter J Ziobro

Dear Peter

I thank you for that info

IMO a good epochal year for a lunisolar calendar might be a year when the beginning of a Metonic cycle coincides with the beginning of a 60 year Chinese cycle A meeting of Eastern and Western lunar calendars They coincide once every 1140 years

WalterZiobro




On Thursday, March 21, 2019 Peter Meyer <[hidden email]> wrote:

Walter asked why -4145 CE was chosen as the epoch year of the
Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar.  As it says at

"This calendar was invented by Peter Meyer in March 1999 starting from
a general form of the above rule for long years etc. devised by Karl
Palmen and posted to the CALNDR-L mailing list on 1999-02-24."

The calendar was invented 20 years ago this month and I don't remember
why -4145 CE was chosen as the epoch year.  Perhaps Karl has a better
answer.

However, according to Stellarium, at 12:00 UTC on -4145-04-08 (= 
000-01-01-01 MP) the Moon was passing by the Pleiades (more exactly,
the right ascension of the Moon was the same as that of the Pleiades,
with a difference in declination of about 2 degrees, so close to
occultation).

Regards,
Peter
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Re: Epoch of Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar

k.palmen@btinternet.com
In reply to this post by Peter Meyer
Dear Peter and Calendar People

I have no idea about why Peter chose this epoch other than one reason might be because it is near Julian Day zero.

Karl

Friday Gamma March 2019

----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 22/03/2019 - 03:39 (GMT)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Epoch of Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar

Walter asked why -4145 CE was chosen as the epoch year of the
Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar.  As it says at
https://www.hermetic.ch/cal_stud/nlsc/nlsc.htm#defn :

"This calendar was invented by Peter Meyer in March 1999 starting from
a general form of the above rule for long years etc. devised by Karl
Palmen and posted to the CALNDR-L mailing list on 1999-02-24."

The calendar was invented 20 years ago this month and I don't remember
why -4145 CE was chosen as the epoch year.  Perhaps Karl has a better
answer.

However, according to Stellarium, at 12:00 UTC on -4145-04-08 (=  
000-01-01-01 MP) the Moon was passing by the Pleiades (more exactly,
the right ascension of the Moon was the same as that of the Pleiades,
with a difference in declination of about 2 degrees, so close to
occultation).

Regards,
Peter
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Western Metonic Cycle Re: Epoch of Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar

k.palmen@btinternet.com
In reply to this post by Walter J Ziobro
Dear Walter and Calendar People

Does Walter mean year of Golden number 1 as the start of the Metonic cycle or years at the start of the Hebrew Metonic cycle?

Karl

Friday Gamma March 2019 
----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 22/03/2019 - 04:17 (GMT)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: Epoch of Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar

Dear Peter

I thank you for that info

IMO a good epochal year for a lunisolar calendar might be a year when the beginning of a Metonic cycle coincides with the beginning of a 60 year Chinese cycle A meeting of Eastern and Western lunar calendars They coincide once every 1140 years

WalterZiobro




On Thursday, March 21, 2019 Peter Meyer <[hidden email]> wrote:

Walter asked why -4145 CE was chosen as the epoch year of the
Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar.  As it says at

"This calendar was invented by Peter Meyer in March 1999 starting from
a general form of the above rule for long years etc. devised by Karl
Palmen and posted to the CALNDR-L mailing list on 1999-02-24."

The calendar was invented 20 years ago this month and I don't remember
why -4145 CE was chosen as the epoch year.  Perhaps Karl has a better
answer.

However, according to Stellarium, at 12:00 UTC on -4145-04-08 (= 
000-01-01-01 MP) the Moon was passing by the Pleiades (more exactly,
the right ascension of the Moon was the same as that of the Pleiades,
with a difference in declination of about 2 degrees, so close to
occultation).

Regards,
Peter


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Re: Epoch of Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar

k.palmen@btinternet.com
In reply to this post by k.palmen@btinternet.com
Dear Peter, Walter and Calendar People

Also I noticed that Easter nearly always occurs on the 3rd Sunday after the MPSLC new year and so the March equinox may have also played a part in the epoch choice.

Karl

Friday Gamma March 2019

----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 22/03/2019 - 10:45 (GMT)
To : [hidden email], [hidden email]
Subject : Re: Epoch of Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar

Dear Peter and Calendar People

I have no idea about why Peter chose this epoch other than one reason might be because it is near Julian Day zero.

Karl

Friday Gamma March 2019

----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 22/03/2019 - 03:39 (GMT)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Epoch of Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar

Walter asked why -4145 CE was chosen as the epoch year of the
Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar.  As it says at
https://www.hermetic.ch/cal_stud/nlsc/nlsc.htm#defn :

"This calendar was invented by Peter Meyer in March 1999 starting from
a general form of the above rule for long years etc. devised by Karl
Palmen and posted to the CALNDR-L mailing list on 1999-02-24."

The calendar was invented 20 years ago this month and I don't remember
why -4145 CE was chosen as the epoch year.  Perhaps Karl has a better
answer.

However, according to Stellarium, at 12:00 UTC on -4145-04-08 (=  
000-01-01-01 MP) the Moon was passing by the Pleiades (more exactly,
the right ascension of the Moon was the same as that of the Pleiades,
with a difference in declination of about 2 degrees, so close to
occultation).

Regards,
Peter
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Re: Western Metonic Cycle Re: Epoch of Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar

Walter J Ziobro
In reply to this post by k.palmen@btinternet.com

Dear Karl

Good question. I know that the Hebrew Metonic cycle is offset from the Golden Numbers of the Easter cycle by a couple of years I was thinking of the Easter cycle The Julian Day system is based on the Easter cycle

Walter Ziobro




On Friday, March 22, 2019 K PALMEN <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Walter and Calendar People

Does Walter mean year of Golden number 1 as the start of the Metonic cycle or years at the start of the Hebrew Metonic cycle?

Karl

Friday Gamma March 2019 
----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 22/03/2019 - 04:17 (GMT)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Re: Epoch of Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar

Dear Peter

I thank you for that info

IMO a good epochal year for a lunisolar calendar might be a year when the beginning of a Metonic cycle coincides with the beginning of a 60 year Chinese cycle A meeting of Eastern and Western lunar calendars They coincide once every 1140 years

WalterZiobro




On Thursday, March 21, 2019 Peter Meyer <[hidden email]> wrote:

Walter asked why -4145 CE was chosen as the epoch year of the
Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar.  As it says at

"This calendar was invented by Peter Meyer in March 1999 starting from
a general form of the above rule for long years etc. devised by Karl
Palmen and posted to the CALNDR-L mailing list on 1999-02-24."

The calendar was invented 20 years ago this month and I don't remember
why -4145 CE was chosen as the epoch year.  Perhaps Karl has a better
answer.

However, according to Stellarium, at 12:00 UTC on -4145-04-08 (= 
000-01-01-01 MP) the Moon was passing by the Pleiades (more exactly,
the right ascension of the Moon was the same as that of the Pleiades,
with a difference in declination of about 2 degrees, so close to
occultation).

Regards,
Peter


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Re: Epoch of Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar

Walter J Ziobro
In reply to this post by Peter Meyer

Dear Karl

I believe that the Golden Numbers were theoretically supposed to start on March 25 of Julian year 1 BC, the traditional Annunciation Date

WalterZiobro




On Friday, March 22, 2019 K PALMEN <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Peter, Walter and Calendar People

Also I noticed that Easter nearly always occurs on the 3rd Sunday after the MPSLC new year and so the March equinox may have also played a part in the epoch choice.

Karl

Friday Gamma March 2019

----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 22/03/2019 - 10:45 (GMT)
To : [hidden email], [hidden email]
Subject : Re: Epoch of Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar

Dear Peter and Calendar People

I have no idea about why Peter chose this epoch other than one reason might be because it is near Julian Day zero.

Karl

Friday Gamma March 2019

----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 22/03/2019 - 03:39 (GMT)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Epoch of Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar

Walter asked why -4145 CE was chosen as the epoch year of the
Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar.  As it says at
https://www.hermetic.ch/cal_stud/nlsc/nlsc.htm#defn :

"This calendar was invented by Peter Meyer in March 1999 starting from
a general form of the above rule for long years etc. devised by Karl
Palmen and posted to the CALNDR-L mailing list on 1999-02-24."

The calendar was invented 20 years ago this month and I don't remember
why -4145 CE was chosen as the epoch year.  Perhaps Karl has a better
answer.

However, according to Stellarium, at 12:00 UTC on -4145-04-08 (= 
000-01-01-01 MP) the Moon was passing by the Pleiades (more exactly,
the right ascension of the Moon was the same as that of the Pleiades,
with a difference in declination of about 2 degrees, so close to
occultation).

Regards,
Peter
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Re: Epoch of Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar

Walter J Ziobro
In reply to this post by Peter Meyer

Dear Karl et al

Going back to my original question, it appears by my calculations, that Golden Number year 1 and the 1 year of the Chinese 60 year cycle first occurred together in the Julian Era in the year -4256 BCE, and most recently in 1444 CE and next in 2584 CE

Walter Ziobro




On Friday, March 22, 2019 K PALMEN <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Peter, Walter and Calendar People

Also I noticed that Easter nearly always occurs on the 3rd Sunday after the MPSLC new year and so the March equinox may have also played a part in the epoch choice.

Karl

Friday Gamma March 2019

----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 22/03/2019 - 10:45 (GMT)
To : [hidden email], [hidden email]
Subject : Re: Epoch of Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar

Dear Peter and Calendar People

I have no idea about why Peter chose this epoch other than one reason might be because it is near Julian Day zero.

Karl

Friday Gamma March 2019

----Original message----
From : [hidden email]
Date : 22/03/2019 - 03:39 (GMT)
To : [hidden email]
Subject : Epoch of Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar

Walter asked why -4145 CE was chosen as the epoch year of the
Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar.  As it says at
https://www.hermetic.ch/cal_stud/nlsc/nlsc.htm#defn :

"This calendar was invented by Peter Meyer in March 1999 starting from
a general form of the above rule for long years etc. devised by Karl
Palmen and posted to the CALNDR-L mailing list on 1999-02-24."

The calendar was invented 20 years ago this month and I don't remember
why -4145 CE was chosen as the epoch year.  Perhaps Karl has a better
answer.

However, according to Stellarium, at 12:00 UTC on -4145-04-08 (= 
000-01-01-01 MP) the Moon was passing by the Pleiades (more exactly,
the right ascension of the Moon was the same as that of the Pleiades,
with a difference in declination of about 2 degrees, so close to
occultation).

Regards,
Peter
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Re: Epoch of Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar

Peter Meyer
In reply to this post by Peter Meyer
Walter said:

> it appears by my calculations, that Golden Number year 1 and the 1
> year of the Chinese 60 year cycle first occurred together in the
> Julian Era in the year -4256 BCE, and most recently in 1444 CE and
> next in 2584 CE

For 1444 CE and 2584 CE this is confirmed by the online calculator at
https://www.hermetic.ch/cal_sw/ch_years.php
Select "Show all years" -- "in the range Common Era years 1440 through 1448"
and "in the range Common Era years 2580 through 2588"
and you'll find that 1444 and 2584 are at Position 1 in some cycle.

This calculator does not handle years before -2696 CE, which is when
Cycle 1 of the Chinese Calendar began (if epoch = -2696).

Regards,
Peter
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Re: Epoch of Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar

Walter J Ziobro
In reply to this post by Peter Meyer

Dear Peter et al

We could call 1444 CE the year of the Golden Mouse, and create a 1140 year cycle that covers the 60 Metonic cycles until 2584 Six such cycles would be a whole 6840 year Meyer-Palmen Cycle

Walter Ziobro




On Friday, March 22, 2019 Peter Meyer <[hidden email]> wrote:

Walter said:

> it appears by my calculations, that Golden Number year 1 and the 1
> year of the Chinese 60 year cycle first occurred together in the
> Julian Era in the year -4256 BCE, and most recently in 1444 CE and
> next in 2584 CE

For 1444 CE and 2584 CE this is confirmed by the online calculator at
Select "Show all years" -- "in the range Common Era years 1440 through 1448"
and "in the range Common Era years 2580 through 2588"
and you'll find that 1444 and 2584 are at Position 1 in some cycle.

This calculator does not handle years before -2696 CE, which is when
Cycle 1 of the Chinese Calendar began (if epoch = -2696).

Regards,
Peter
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Re: Epoch of Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar

Walter J Ziobro
In reply to this post by Peter Meyer

Dear Peter et al

Related to this matter, I have given some thought to a universal lunisolar calendar that could combine features of both Eastern and Western calendars However I have had trouble doing so because I have observed a significant difference between them This difference is related to how the months are defined relative to the seasonal points

Having found no existing that describes this difference, I refer to the two types of lunisolar calendars as being either new moon or full moon calendars

A new moon calendar defines the months such that the new moons of the same months occur near the seasonal points from year to year; most Western lunisolar calendars are of this type. While both the Hebrew calendar and the Gregorian lunar calendar define Nissan or the Paschal moon as that full moon first occurring after the northward equinox, the result is a calendar whose new moons of the same month move around the equinox from year to year

A full moon calendar generally places the seasonal points in the same months from year to year, causing the full moons of the same months to move around the seasonal points from year to year We see this in the Chinese calendar, which requires that the south solstice occur in the 11th month

This results in two types of calendars that are not in sync from year to year We can see this when we observe that the months of the Hebrew calendar don't correspond to the months in the Chinese calendar We can also see this when we observe in some years Chinese New Year and Ash Wednesday will fall in the same months, and in other years Chinese New Year will be a month earlier Some may think that this is due to different rules for the embolistic month, I maintain that it is more often due to the more basic difference between the two types of lunisolar calendars

Ayway, I am still working on a universal system, and am coming to the conclusion that this can be done with two parallel lunar month systems that match in some years, and are out of sync by one month in other years More about this in another post

Walter Ziobro




On Friday, March 22, 2019 Peter Meyer <[hidden email]> wrote:

Walter said:

> it appears by my calculations, that Golden Number year 1 and the 1
> year of the Chinese 60 year cycle first occurred together in the
> Julian Era in the year -4256 BCE, and most recently in 1444 CE and
> next in 2584 CE

For 1444 CE and 2584 CE this is confirmed by the online calculator at
Select "Show all years" -- "in the range Common Era years 1440 through 1448"
and "in the range Common Era years 2580 through 2588"
and you'll find that 1444 and 2584 are at Position 1 in some cycle.

This calculator does not handle years before -2696 CE, which is when
Cycle 1 of the Chinese Calendar began (if epoch = -2696).

Regards,
Peter
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Re: Epoch of Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar

Peter Meyer
In reply to this post by Peter Meyer
Walter said:

> I refer to two types of lunisolar calendars as being either new moon
> or full moon calendars ...
>
> A new moon calendar defines the months such that the new moons of the
> same months occur near the seasonal points from year to year; ... the
> result is a calendar whose new moons of the same month move around
> the equinox from year to year ...
>
> A full moon calendar generally places the seasonal points in the same
> months from year to year, causing the full moons of the same months
> to move around the seasonal points from year to year This results in
> two types of calendars that are not in sync from year to year  ...
>
> Anyway, I am still working on a universal system, and am coming to
> the conclusion that this can be done with two parallel lunar month
> systems that match in some years, and are out of sync by one month in
> other years

An ambitious project.  Let us know when you succeed.

My Archetypes Calendar is an attempt to define a rule-based calendar
which accords closely with the Chinese Calendar but although the dates
of the month starts are mostly the same, in some cases there is a
one-day difference, and rarely there is a one-month difference.  For
statistics re the accord of the new years day in these two calendars see
https://www.hermetic.ch/cal_stud/arch_cal/arch_cal.htm#chinese

Regards,
Peter
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Re: Epoch of Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar

Peter Meyer
In reply to this post by Peter Meyer
The Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar (MPSLC) designates days by means of
dates consisting of four numbers (cycle - year - month - day) where the
day number ranges from 1 through 31, the month number ranges from 1
through 13, the year number ranges from 1 through 60 and the cycle
number is an integer (-2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, ...). This calendar is
related to the Julian day number system (and thus to the Common Era
Calendar) as follows: 000-01-01-01 MP, the first day of the first month
of the first year in cycle 000 corresponds to Julian day number 207,227
(-4145-04-08 CE).

Walter asked why I chose an epoch in -4145 CE.  I don't recall exactly
but probably it was so that no 'reasonable' (a.k.a. 'historical') date
in the MPSLC would have a negative cycle number.

Generally speaking, a good reason to choose an epoch in the distant
past for an invented calendar (with year numbers) is so that no
historical date has a negative year number.

As we see with the Gregorian and Julian Calendars, calculating the
number of days between two dates, one of which has a negative year
number (or a positive BCE number) and one of which has a positive year
number, can be a problem for some people, although fortunately they
don't have to do it every day.

Regards,
Peter
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Re: Epoch of Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar

Amos Shapir-2
Hi Peter and calendar people,

If one has to choose an epoch that would guarantee that no historical date will have a negative year number, there is an advantage to just adding 10,000 to the Julian/Gregorian year.
It's the easiest to convert without a calculator (for BC dates, subtract each digit from 9, then add 2, e.g. 586BC = 9415).  I found it especially useful for understanding events in the 1st century BC -- it turns out that there are a lot of those, and interestingly many had occurred exactly 2000 years before the 20th century, which was also eventful.

This method is also known as Holocene Era.

On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 5:32 AM Peter Meyer <[hidden email]> wrote:
The Meyer-Palmen Solilunar Calendar (MPSLC) designates days by means of
dates consisting of four numbers (cycle - year - month - day) where the
day number ranges from 1 through 31, the month number ranges from 1
through 13, the year number ranges from 1 through 60 and the cycle
number is an integer (-2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, ...). This calendar is
related to the Julian day number system (and thus to the Common Era
Calendar) as follows: 000-01-01-01 MP, the first day of the first month
of the first year in cycle 000 corresponds to Julian day number 207,227
(-4145-04-08 CE).

Walter asked why I chose an epoch in -4145 CE.  I don't recall exactly
but probably it was so that no 'reasonable' (a.k.a. 'historical') date
in the MPSLC would have a negative cycle number.

Generally speaking, a good reason to choose an epoch in the distant
past for an invented calendar (with year numbers) is so that no
historical date has a negative year number.

As we see with the Gregorian and Julian Calendars, calculating the
number of days between two dates, one of which has a negative year
number (or a positive BCE number) and one of which has a positive year
number, can be a problem for some people, although fortunately they
don't have to do it every day.

Regards,
Peter


--
Amos Shapir