Does anyone believe that this is Autumn and not Winter?

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Does anyone believe that this is Autumn and not Winter?

Michael Ossipoff

French-Republican, World-Seasonal, and 28&14 say that right now it’s still Autumn, and isn’t Winter yet. That practice preserves some calendarical neatness, but contradicts what the names of the seasons mean.

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Places where most of December doesn’t feel like Winter are probably places where the seasons don’t change much, or don’t resemble “temperate” seasons.

.

“Frimaire”?  Frost formation requires freezing temperature, and, to nearly all of us, that’s an attribute of Winter.

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No, sorry, this is Winter, not Autumn.

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Incidentally (as indicated in my earlier posting-dates today),  in 5&4 SC (version 1), today is:

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Early South  Week 2  Friday.

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Well, look at the Roman-Gregorian Calendar on your wall, and you’ll notice that, if you don’t count, as a week, the Saturday on which this month started, we’re in the 2nd week of December.

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5&4 SC tracks the consensus seasons so well that, at least often, a Roman-Gregorian Calendar indicates the 5&4 SC date.

------------------------------------

By the way, of course, around here, DJs, broadcasters, weather-reporters, and astronomers routinely announce the arrival of a terrestrial season whenever there’s a solstice or equinox.  

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In a town where I lived, I once called a local astronomer who’d just announced such a season-commencement on his radio-spot.  I questioned whether that season (I don’t remember which season it was) had begun, as his statement contradicts what we all mean by the seasons. I suggested that, if he wants to announce the astronomical quarters, he could just call them astronomical quarters instead of “seasons”.

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He answered that he wasn’t the one who started those designations. I suggested that, if he doesn’t believe in them, then he doesn’t have to repeat them.

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Early-South  Week 2  Friday

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Michael Ossipoff

 

 

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Re: Does anyone believe that this is Autumn and not Winter?

Victor Engel
Dear Michael,

On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 2:13 PM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

French-Republican, World-Seasonal, and 28&14 say that right now it’s still Autumn, and isn’t Winter yet. That practice preserves some calendarical neatness, but contradicts what the names of the seasons mean.


Oh? Doesn't it really depend on geography?

.

Places where most of December doesn’t feel like Winter are probably places where the seasons don’t change much, or don’t resemble “temperate” seasons.


Actually, the phase of the temperature changes by geography other than latitude. I have not found a map of the world for this, but here is a map of the lower 48 states of the United States. There is considerable variability. I've lived most of my life in Texas where the coldest part of the year is almost always January. Here in Austin, our average first frost is in December. Average last frost is in March. That seems to fit nicely with the typically-named seasons.


The seasons vary greatly here, but if going strictly by temperature, they would probably be broken down like this:

Summer: end of May through September
Autumn: October through December
Winter: January and February
Spring: March through the first part of May

West Texas us quite a bit different, with the warmest month being in June instead of August. That's about a two month difference in the same state.
 

.

“Frimaire”?  Frost formation requires freezing temperature, and, to nearly all of us, that’s an attribute of Winter.

.

No, sorry, this is Winter, not Autumn.


Autumn is also associated with falling leaves. That aspect is rather interesting here. Some trees here have dropped most of their leaves. Some have just started. Still others don't drop their leaves until spring when the new leaves emerge. It actually does feel wintry here now compared to normal, but that's mainly because this year we had an unusually early freeze.

Victor
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Re: Does anyone believe that this is Autumn and not Winter?

Michael Ossipoff

Victor—

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You wrote:

.

[quote]

On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 2:13 PM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

.

“French-Republican, World-Seasonal, and 28&14 say that right now it’s still Autumn, and isn’t Winter yet. That practice preserves some calendarical neatness, but contradicts what the names of the seasons mean.”—Michael Ossipoff

.

Oh? Doesn't it really depend on geography?

[/quote]

.

It does depend on geography.  And there’s still is, and has long been, some consensus about Winter arriving with December , and Summer arriving with June.  And early writers, such as Spenser in the 16th century (The Shepard’s Calendar), and Leigh Hunt (A Calendar for the Seasons) in the early 19th century, spoke of that, and of Spring arriving with April.  Only in England?  Well, it fits the central California coast too. Those are two considerably different climate-places.

.

And, in English-speaking Southern-Hemisphere lands, it’s standard that Summer arrives with December, and Winter arrives with June.

.

Here’s a quote from, and a link to, a Wikipedia article, and elsewhere,  about that consensus:

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Wikipedia: Season

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Ecologists often use a six-season model for temperate climate regions: prevernal, vernal, estival, serotinal, autumnal, and hibernal.

.

Meteorological

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Meteorological seasons are reckoned by temperature, with summer being the hottest quarter of the year and winter the coldest quarter of the year. In 1780 the Societas Meteorologica Palatina (which became defunct in 1795), an early international organization for meteorology, defined seasons as groupings of three whole months as identified by the Gregorian calendar. Ever since, professional meteorologists all over the world have used this definition.[9] Therefore, for temperate areas in the northern hemisphere, spring begins on 1 March, summer on 1 June, autumn on 1 September, and winter on 1 December. For the southern hemisphere temperate zone, spring begins on 1 September, summer on 1 December, autumn on 1 March, and winter on 1 June.[10][11] In Australasia the meteorological terms for seasons apply to the temperate zone that occupies all of New Zealand, New South Wales, Victoria, Tasmania, the south-eastern corner of South Australia and the south-west of Western Australia, and the south east Queensland areas south of Brisbane.

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That’s at:

.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season#Meteorological

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Seasons: Meteorological and Astronomical

.

Northern Meteorological Seasons

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According to the meteorological definition, the seasons begin on the first day of the months that include the equinoxes and solstices:

.

  • Spring runs from March 1 to May 31;
  • Summer runs from June 1 to August 31;
  • Fall (autumn) runs from September 1 to November 30; and
  • Winter runs from December 1 to February 28 (February 29 in a leap year).

.

That’s at:

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https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/aboutseasons.html

.

Yes, I’ve lived where it didn’t seem like summer until some time in early July.  Of course a seasonal calendar can’t possibly tell what it’s like everywhere. But even a rough seasonal-tracking is useful, interesting and worthwhile, as a basis for naming the months.    …better than Roman deities and emperors for instance. How precisely do the seasons have to be tracked to make seasonal-naming meaningful to us than the Roman naming?

.

Besides, even if December means different things, with regard to temperature and weather, to people in various diverse places, it remains that people anywhere know what a month means to them, with regard to temperature and weather. And evidently there’s consensus that Winter arrives with December—even if it isn’t exactly the same Winter in different places.

.

[quote]

“Places where most of December doesn’t feel like Winter are probably places where the seasons don’t change much, or don’t resemble “temperate” seasons.”—Michael Ossipoff

.

Actually, the phase of the temperature changes by geography other than latitude.

[/quote]

.

Of course. In “temperate” latitudes, the seasonal time-lag tends to be most on oceanic islands and west-coasts, and least in inland continental-climate regions.

.

[quote]

I have not found a map of the world for this, but here is a map of the lower 48 states of the United States. There is considerable variability. I've lived most of my life in Texas where the coldest part of the year is almost always January.

[/quote]

.

That’s true on the California coast too.  Where I did the determination there, the middle-of-Winter was usually January 28.  But that was coastal.  I’ve been in more continental places where December was the coldest month.

.

…and most places on land are continental.

.

[quote]

Here in Austin, our average first frost is in December. Average last frost is in March. That seems to fit nicely with the typically-named seasons.

[/quote]

.

Agreed.

.

[quote]

The seasons vary greatly here, but if going strictly by temperature, they would probably be broken down like this:

.

Summer: end of May

[/quote]

.

Yes, that’s consistent with the consensus that Summer arrives with June.

.

[quote]

 through September

[/quote]

.

Yes, in coastal California too, September doesn’t feel or look like Autumn yet (…but some time in September, it feels different from Summer, previewing Autumn). But I’ve lived where it is definitely starting to get distinctly colder in September, undeniably Autumn.

.

In coastal California, September seemed transitional between Summer and Autumn, just as March seemed transitional between Winter and Spring.

.

[quote]

Autumn: October through December

[/quote]

.

Yes, in my season/month correspondence designation, Autumn starts around the time when October starts.

.

[quote]

Winter: January and February

[/quote]

.

People living in most places would envy your late-arriving Winter.   …and your early-arriving Spring, as you state directly below:

.

[quote]

Spring: March through the first part of May

[/quote]

.

Bottom-line?   Austin sounds like a nice place to reside in!

.

[quote]

West Texas us quite a bit different, with the warmest month being in June instead of August. That's about a two month difference in the same state.

[/quote]

.

Sure, there’s no denying that there’s geographical variation in the seasons. But at least some attempt at seasonal-naming makes sense for naming months in a drastic-departure calendar, when it’s desired to leave the Roman months behind.

.

…the more so when, even in spite of geographical variation of month-season correspondence, people in those different places are often still saying the same correspondence of month-names with seasons-names.

.

  “Frimaire”?  Frost formation requires freezing temperature, and, to nearly all of us, that’s an attribute of Winter.

.

No, sorry, this is Winter, not Autumn.”—Michael Ossipoff

[quote]

.

Autumn is also associated with falling leaves.

[/quote]

.

In many typical “temperate” places, all or nearly all of the leaves that are going to fall have fallen before mid-December.

.

[quote]

That aspect is rather interesting here. Some trees here have dropped most of their leaves. Some have just started. Still others don't drop their leaves until spring when the new leaves emerge.

[/quote]

.

Yes, the wide variety in the times of year that trees drop leaves makes it difficult to define Autumn on that basis.

.

[quote]

It actually does feel wintry here now compared to normal, but that's mainly because this year we had an unusually early freeze.

[/quote]

You’re fortunate there, that it isn’t usually winter-cold in December there.

.

Early-South  Week 2  Friday

.

Michael Ossipoff

.

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Re: Does anyone believe that this is Autumn and not Winter?

Walter J Ziobro
In reply to this post by Michael Ossipoff

Dear Michael et al

"Winter" is a relative seasonal term dependent on geography, as are all other seasonal names The equinoxes and Solstices are the only precise astronomical points of the tropical year

One nice thing about the current Roman names of the months of the Gregorian calendar is that none of them imply any particular season in themselves

Walter Ziobro




On Saturday, December 15, 2018 Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:


Victor—

.

You wrote:

.

[quote]

On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 2:13 PM Michael Ossipoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

.

“French-Republican, World-Seasonal, and 28&14 say that right now it’s still Autumn, and isn’t Winter yet. That practice preserves some calendarical neatness, but contradicts what the names of the seasons mean.”—Michael Ossipoff

.

Oh? Doesn't it really depend on geography?

[/quote]

.

It does depend on geography.  And there’s still is, and has long been, some consensus about Winter arriving with December , and Summer arriving with June.  And early writers, such as Spenser in the 16th century (The Shepard’s Calendar), and Leigh Hunt (A Calendar for the Seasons) in the early 19th century, spoke of that, and of Spring arriving with April.  Only in England?  Well, it fits the central California coast too. Those are two considerably different climate-places.

.

And, in English-speaking Southern-Hemisphere lands, it’s standard that Summer arrives with December, and Winter arrives with June.

.

Here’s a quote from, and a link to, a Wikipedia article, and elsewhere,  about that consensus:

.

Wikipedia: Season

.

Ecologists often use a six-season model for temperate climate regions: prevernal, vernal, estival, serotinal, autumnal, and hibernal.

.

Meteorological

.

Meteorological seasons are reckoned by temperature, with summer being the hottest quarter of the year and winter the coldest quarter of the year. In 1780 the Societas Meteorologica Palatina (which became defunct in 1795), an early international organization for meteorology, defined seasons as groupings of three whole months as identified by the Gregorian calendar. Ever since, professional meteorologists all over the world have used this definition.[9] Therefore, for temperate areas in the northern hemisphere, spring begins on 1 March, summer on 1 June, autumn on 1 September, and winter on 1 December. For the southern hemisphere temperate zone, spring begins on 1 September, summer on 1 December, autumn on 1 March, and winter on 1 June.[10][11] In Australasia the meteorological terms for seasons apply to the temperate zone that occupies all of New Zealand, New South Wales, Victoria, Tasmania, the south-eastern corner of South Australia and the south-west of Western Australia, and the south east Queensland areas south of Brisbane.

.

That’s at:

.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season#Meteorological

.

Seasons: Meteorological and Astronomical

.

Northern Meteorological Seasons

.

According to the meteorological definition, the seasons begin on the first day of the months that include the equinoxes and solstices:

.

  • Spring runs from March 1 to May 31;
  • Summer runs from June 1 to August 31;
  • Fall (autumn) runs from September 1 to November 30; and
  • Winter runs from December 1 to February 28 (February 29 in a leap year).

.

That’s at:

.

https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/aboutseasons.html

.

Yes, I’ve lived where it didn’t seem like summer until some time in early July.  Of course a seasonal calendar can’t possibly tell what it’s like everywhere. But even a rough seasonal-tracking is useful, interesting and worthwhile, as a basis for naming the months.    …better than Roman deities and emperors for instance. How precisely do the seasons have to be tracked to make seasonal-naming meaningful to us than the Roman naming?

.

Besides, even if December means different things, with regard to temperature and weather, to people in various diverse places, it remains that people anywhere know what a month means to them, with regard to temperature and weather. And evidently there’s consensus that Winter arrives with December—even if it isn’t exactly the same Winter in different places.

.

[quote]

“Places where most of December doesn’t feel like Winter are probably places where the seasons don’t change much, or don’t resemble “temperate” seasons.”—Michael Ossipoff

.

Actually, the phase of the temperature changes by geography other than latitude.

[/quote]

.

Of course. In “temperate” latitudes, the seasonal time-lag tends to be most on oceanic islands and west-coasts, and least in inland continental-climate regions.

.

[quote]

I have not found a map of the world for this, but here is a map of the lower 48 states of the United States. There is considerable variability. I've lived most of my life in Texas where the coldest part of the year is almost always January.

[/quote]

.

That’s true on the California coast too.  Where I did the determination there, the middle-of-Winter was usually January 28.  But that was coastal.  I’ve been in more continental places where December was the coldest month.

.

…and most places on land are continental.

.

[quote]

Here in Austin, our average first frost is in December. Average last frost is in March. That seems to fit nicely with the typically-named seasons.

[/quote]

.

Agreed.

.

[quote]

The seasons vary greatly here, but if going strictly by temperature, they would probably be broken down like this:

.

Summer: end of May

[/quote]

.

Yes, that’s consistent with the consensus that Summer arrives with June.

.

[quote]

 through September

[/quote]

.

Yes, in coastal California too, September doesn’t feel or look like Autumn yet (…but some time in September, it feels different from Summer, previewing Autumn). But I’ve lived where it is definitely starting to get distinctly colder in September, undeniably Autumn.

.

In coastal California, September seemed transitional between Summer and Autumn, just as March seemed transitional between Winter and Spring.

.

[quote]

Autumn: October through December

[/quote]

.

Yes, in my season/month correspondence designation, Autumn starts around the time when October starts.

.

[quote]

Winter: January and February

[/quote]

.

People living in most places would envy your late-arriving Winter.   …and your early-arriving Spring, as you state directly below:

.

[quote]

Spring: March through the first part of May

[/quote]

.

Bottom-line?   Austin sounds like a nice place to reside in!

.

[quote]

West Texas us quite a bit different, with the warmest month being in June instead of August. That's about a two month difference in the same state.

[/quote]

.

Sure, there’s no denying that there’s geographical variation in the seasons. But at least some attempt at seasonal-naming makes sense for naming months in a drastic-departure calendar, when it’s desired to leave the Roman months behind.

.

…the more so when, even in spite of geographical variation of month-season correspondence, people in those different places are often still saying the same correspondence of month-names with seasons-names.

.

  “Frimaire”?  Frost formation requires freezing temperature, and, to nearly all of us, that’s an attribute of Winter.

.

No, sorry, this is Winter, not Autumn.”—Michael Ossipoff

[quote]

.

Autumn is also associated with falling leaves.

[/quote]

.

In many typical “temperate” places, all or nearly all of the leaves that are going to fall have fallen before mid-December.

.

[quote]

That aspect is rather interesting here. Some trees here have dropped most of their leaves. Some have just started. Still others don't drop their leaves until spring when the new leaves emerge.

[/quote]

.

Yes, the wide variety in the times of year that trees drop leaves makes it difficult to define Autumn on that basis.

.

[quote]

It actually does feel wintry here now compared to normal, but that's mainly because this year we had an unusually early freeze.

[/quote]

You’re fortunate there, that it isn’t usually winter-cold in December there.

.

Early-South  Week 2  Friday

.

Michael Ossipoff

.

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Re: Does anyone believe that this is Autumn and not Winter?

Michael Ossipoff

Walter—

.

You wrote:

.

[quote]

"Winter" is a relative seasonal term dependent on geography, as are all other seasonal names.

[/quote]

.

Of course, and there’s broad widespread consensus about saying that, in “temperate” regions, as near as can be said in general, on average, typically, Summer arrives with June and Winter arrives with December.

.

As I mentioned in my other post about this today, this isn’t about precise date/season correspondence.  Our current months are named for Roman deities and emperors, and a no-longer-accurate numerical-order. How precise does seasonal-tracking have to be, for it to be more relevant or interesting to us than that?

.

Additionally, even where “December” doesn’t bring the same temperatures and weather in particular locations, nonetheless people in those locations, to a large extent, refer to the same month-name to season-name correspondence.   …and that’s all it takes for a seasonal calendar such as mine to be relevant.

.

[quote]

The equinoxes and Solstices are the only precise astronomical points of the tropical year

[/quote]

.

In the tradition of the French Republican Calendar and Asimov’s World-Seasonal Calendar, I wanted an astronomical-_terrestrial_ seasonal calendar.    …even though obviously season-names won’t coincide with  exactly the same temperatures, weather and other conditions everywhere.  (…but see above.)

.

[quote]

One nice thing about the current Roman names of the months of the Gregorian calendar is that none of them imply any particular season in themselves.

[/quote]

.

Not explicitly. But by inference they do.   …in two ways:

.

April has been said to be named for a deity associated with spring-like attributes. But additionally, the Roman months have been in use for about 2000 years. For that reason, now, everywhere, each of those months is known to (at least tend to) bring a certain kind of temperature, weather and other environmental conditions at each particular location.

.

So yes, the Roman-Gregorian Calendar can therefore be said to be a seasonal calendar.  …and likewise the Hanke-Henry Calendar, which only very slightly ever departs from Roman-Gregorian.

.

…but, as I said, I want an _astronomical_-terrestrial calendar. Hence 5&4 Seasons-Consensus (5&4 SC).

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Early South  Week 2  Saturday (5&4 SC  version 1)

South1 Week 2  Saturday  (5&4 SC  version 2)

2018-W50-6   (ISO WeekDate)

2018-W51-6  (South-Solstice WeekDate)

December 15th  (Roman-Gregorian)

December 16th  (Hanke-Henry)

.

Michael Ossipoff